Forsaken Lands

Mya, my orginal point remains: Why do paladins need any more offense? Access to all curatives and protective spells, hellstream like vs evil spell, other damage spells (one possibly blinding), healing spells and decent melee.

Paladins are NOT geared to be a super offensive class - they need to make use of their martial and casting abilties usually combined with some 'cleric like' dancing.

They are also geared towards beating up evil (hence wrath). They are weaker vs neutral (though flamestrike helps a lot with this).

I do not see they need any more offensive tools.

L-A

PS - If you want to debate mino's make another thread - I'll be happy to start with mino's only get two classes....

Holy Wrath is only usefull for Evils.

Neutrals get almost half the damage or something near.

Goods get none...

The Stapple of Paladins is Mounted Combat, Wrath and cures.

Paladins are weak with weapons, with few types and an awful selection.

Their defence, comes mainly from spells. Without blind fighting and lacking weapon knowledge they eat meele like a Cleric.

Sure they have dodge, but they do not have Protective shield to escape and heal.

Their offense vs mobs even Pales compared with that of a cleric.

I can do the Factions with a Cleric, but cannot with a Paladin.

Got sidetracked.

With the introduction of few new Classes/Races, the shift of the Mud changed. But Paladins remained the same with the exception of Magic strike.

Geared for fighting lagging Warriors when using a shield, it has few other little applications.

Now Dark Kights have new shining Toys...

Improved Cleave...

Chamies casts...

Magic strike that works without a shield

And staff protection thing

Reformed Malforms

Yet Paladins have to fight new menaces they did not have to in the past.

Feral Fury comes to mind.

Blademasters strikes.

Rangers casting spells. In case you are wondering, arrows spells are blocked by saves. No saves, and you get some nasty spells on you.

Paladins unlike DK's need to be able to cast, in order to win fights.

No Dey, you are not an example. You had very good gear. Classes should not need that kind of gear to compete.

Just like Clerics should not have to go to Gear just to get that Dam Mace.

DKs are supposed to be stronger offensively, since they are much easier to die with than paladins. Try playing a dk once Mya, and you will understand why they get all the cool things.

I'll make a few posts to deal with different points - it helps me keep my ideas together ;-)

Mya - I think you got it backwards with the 'changes' to the MUD things. Paladins were amongst the first upgraded - way back when we went from 1.0 to 2.0. Notabely mounted charge. I'm pretty sure they gained flamestrike back then as well. Holy word showed up about this time (which bloody hurts, no matter which way you slice it). Goliath and heroism showed up here to I believe (not having played a paladin 1.0 I'm not sure on the exact timing but I'm pretty sure they were put in together).

Mounted charge was later toned with the timer due to the 4 round flee charge locks etc.

Magic strike is thier most recent addiditon - but make no mistake, paladins have been riding the waves of their nice changes for a while.

DKs weren't altered for a long time - in face they have been consistantly gimped back with certain mobs being made either resistant or uncharmable. Malforms have been made so they now aren't always 'forever' and take longer. These are subtle but affected the class greatly. They gained magic strike. I don't know what 'better cleave' you mean - it was changed around 2.0 from the 'could kill you outright' to 'can make you fall asleep' My first char in 2.0 was a DK and he had the sleep cleave (Cirous being the poster child for cleave in 1.0 - don't tell me cleaving a well eq'd drow bmage with better than -450ac in three tries is better than what we have now...). I will trade charmie casting for my orginal Warlock that I had a long time ago. Or the 1.0 cook for that matter.

I simply don't share your fear of Feral Fury - I won't push the point to hard but certain things beat up certain classes. Play a warrior, zerk or ranger and you'll find fury isn't really a worry. Ferals are a good race but have significant drawbacks. Not everyone is good at exploiting them. That's a choice you make at character creation.

Rangers are completely different beasts - and I think they have too much in regard to survivability, offense and defense. However, that's something I've already put my ideas forward on so I don't need to bring here. Suffice to say I don't want to use them as an example just yet. However, they do not affect the paladins game plan.

Sorry, but even I have fallen onto the 'get good eq' bandwagon of late. There isn't a way to stand up in today's FL without it. Even when I used to it was a losing battle - and certain changes in classes have just made it easier and easier to get. Quite simply you need to eq for what you are fighting - and change it if that changes. If you're paladin faces 2349038409123809218321 feral blademaster then work out what is going to help and get eq for it. If that means all hit and no saves for a while so be it. RUN when the shaman shows up and spend the week plinking -save eq if you have to. I'm about to start doing this to attempt to become more competitive.

While you're sort of right that paladins need their spells - they do NOT need more melee. They have a lot of potency - and much of it is in surivivablity. I always view the classes power in more than just PK. Offense, defense and survivability. Of the classes that can throw down damage in melee paladins are the sole one with access to MANY cures. They are walking tanks - and you're experience highlight there weaknesses. All class should have weaknesses.

L-A

There have been some mentions of certain paladin vs class things so I'll give my take:

Vs Feral ranger:

Arrows are not an issues. Paladins have scrolls which completely negate this - next.
Fury is an issue - so deal with it.
Flamestrike is also an issue for the feral - use it love it. The feral will obviously try to fury to stop you.
No counter for rangers - charge magnets. Eat polearm b!tch. Now eat a flamestrike. Want another, my pleasure. Now the feral unlags. Flee, maybe charge again for dam, throw off some nasty scroll (his hp is going down much faster than you by this stage....), if he's evil and you had holy word up flee before fury and spam the wrath to get the damage. Remember, once he's low its easier to push it home. Charge;flee robs people of hp faster than you think....at least until fury wears off.
You WILL need a norem polearm. I don't want ot hear about vuln, nodrop or anything if you want to put up a fight. I just fought a feral ranger with a nodrop - I got my @$$ kicked. I fought him with a norem staff - the result was more to my liking. He might have blindfighting but he don't know polearm making it hard for him. Mace can also work - but I'd be VERY careful if its disarmable. Once you're out of melee defense a ranger with pets will start to chip you down FAST.

Vs giant warrior

Yes, they will try to bash you. Get on Goliath. Oh yeah, the fact that you get healed on bashes helps - a LOT. Look at my log as a zerk vs that paladin, damn healing on my slams :-(
Get enlarged to help with bash - yes, giants will enlarge but it forces it.
Get to -400ac and see what happens with bashes (I hate putting figures on the Forum, but Viri gaves us this back in the day so I'll pass it on). There is -100 available via four spells, the rest is your dex and armor. Human is bigger than elf so less lag, elf is smaller but better ac.
You will suffer a lot more vs neutrals here. As I've said, paladins have more fun vs evils.
Corim (as a paladin) used a rare high dam ice weapon (which I haven't seen in ages Mya, hint hint) to severely beat up one of the stronger fgs of the day. Use it, love it.
Charge won't help you vs a warrior, counter will hurt you.
There are bad, bad, bad scrolls out there. Get them and use them. You have scrolls and he doesn't - make that fact HURT.

Speaking of which, if you're taking arrow damage here you're donig it wrong.

L-A

After playing a paladin, I can say, beyond all other classes I never felt at a disadvantage vs any class period. Bashes? 400 ac + enlarge and bashes become laughable. I found a balanced suit of hit and saves was the way to go. Using the cure crit spell effectively (not when your almost dead) as well as using all the buffs available to you, and weapon selection (I lost once at pinn and all I ever used was a polearm, I never dual wielded or used a shield.) you can beat anyone at all.

L-A... I would love to see a log of a paladin charge lagging for four rounds on its own (paralyzed/etc. enemies don't count). I am 100% certain my paladins did not ever lag that long, even with an enlarged Goliath-mounted charge. In my experience, it was always right around two rounds of lag for both sides... and checking through PK logs on the forum with paladins, I have yet to see anything that doesn't look like a two-rounder for lag. I'm sorry, but without logs, I simply do not believe you here - my own experience from a couple hundred hours of playing paladins says you are dead wrong. Either that, or I never figured some trick out and the only class I've never died with I should've been even stronger with (that's a scary thought).

Ferals and rangers (yes, even neutral ones) I found that paladins eat for breakfast. Never had a serious challenge from either as my paladins, at all. I have a log of my level 42 paladin beating a level 50 ranger if you don't believe me. Flamestrike plus an elf paladin's crazy defensiveness just takes the pets out of the picture, and all you've got left is a weak warrior who can't lag you to deal with. Other neutral melees are trickier, but rangers are really, really easy the moment you get that noremove polearm.

Regarding bashing... yes, it's a weakness, but never has one of my paladins been lagged into the ground. It's something you have to expect and factor into your tactics - figure out when the bashes are likely to come, and more importantly when the bashes are likely to really hurt (early on in a fight, if a melee opens by bashing rather than dirting or something else, that's fine - just toss in a flee or two for when the lag breaks for a moment, heal up the melee damage you took, and continue chipping away when he catches up).

Mounted charge is still useful against classes with counter - you just need to learn when to use it. A lot of paladin skills are best used together as a sort of one-two punch.

Mya, if your paladins are eating melee like a cleric, then you are playing them very wrong. Half the reason I love paladins, particularly elf paladins, is because they are incredibly defensive in melee. As has been mentioned, a polearm's a great weapon defensively - but a sword/shield combo is better in a lot of situations (such as, oh, lacking a norem polearm - at least a disarm only costs you one defense rather than two here).

As for eq... a paladin's the easiest thing in the game to equip, if you ask me. Doesn't need much of either hit/dam or saves to do fine, can fight pretty much anything (and particularly evil/undead mobs) on its own... how you had trouble doing the Factions is beyond me.

Mya is laying down some "sirias facts". My belly hurts, but it has a good side too, I won't have to go the gym for my abs training today.

<3 Mya

In my opinion, paladins are (and should be) 2/3 caster 1/3 melee. Trance and a long list of spells vs dual wield and 4 weapons. As stated, paladins beat on evils and have nothing but flamestrike for neutrals, I agree with this, since paladins are the epitome of good, or whatever. They shouldn't have a bunch of abilities to hurt neutrals, since they "shouldn't" be fighting them(yes, I know you have to defend yourself, etc.) Also, considering that pallies get cure crit, disease, poison, blind, plus defensive stuff, they shouldn't be extra buff in melee. It'd be like giving battlemages cure crit, they just don't need it, plus then battlemages would destroy people.

DKs are (and should be) 2/3 melee and 1/3 caster. Everyone weapon but 1, malform and lagging abilities vs lower level mals and so-so afflictives. DKs, on the other hand, are all about lots of damage, really fast. They get just as many defenses, but way more attack options, in the form of bash, trip, and afflictive/maledictive spells.

I like the way it's set up, and I don't see paladins needing a boost.(Nor do clerics for that matter, I personally even think they should have an xp penalty.) DKs, I think, need a little bit of help, since so much of their PK ability depends on malform, and getting one to a decent level. Difficult to do if you suck at PK to begin with.

Finally, to get back on topic: If we're gonna give it to paladins, it should go to everyone. So cleaves and charges(for all classes) should get the damage type as well.

L-A... I would love to see a log of a paladin charge lagging for four rounds on its own (paralyzed/etc. enemies don't count). I am 100% certain my paladins did not ever lag that long' date=' even with an enlarged Goliath-mounted charge. In my experience, it was always right around two rounds of lag for both sides... and checking through PK logs on the forum with paladins, I have yet to see anything that doesn't look like a two-rounder for lag. I'm sorry, but without logs, I simply do not believe you here - my own experience from a couple hundred hours of playing paladins says you are dead wrong. Either that, or I never figured some trick out and the only class I've never died with I should've been even stronger with (that's a scary thought).[/quote']

Likewise.

Ferals and rangers (yes, even neutral ones) I found that paladins eat for breakfast. Never had a serious challenge from either as my paladins, at all. I have a log of my level 42 paladin beating a level 50 ranger if you don't believe me. Flamestrike plus an elf paladin's crazy defensiveness just takes the pets out of the picture, and all you've got left is a weak warrior who can't lag you to deal with. Other neutral melees are trickier, but rangers are really, really easy the moment you get that noremove polearm.

Likewise. I was about to make this point myself VS mya's comment about feral rangers - paladins shouldn't worry about rangers in general (unless it's Mindflayer's barbarian feral one.. mutter ) too much.

Regarding bashing... yes, it's a weakness, but never has one of my paladins been lagged into the ground. It's something you have to expect and factor into your tactics - figure out when the bashes are likely to come, and more importantly when the bashes are likely to really hurt (early on in a fight, if a melee opens by bashing rather than dirting or something else, that's fine - just toss in a flee or two for when the lag breaks for a moment, heal up the melee damage you took, and continue chipping away when he catches up).

Mounted charge is still useful against classes with counter - you just need to learn when to use it. A lot of paladin skills are best used together as a sort of one-two punch.

Mya, if your paladins are eating melee like a cleric, then you are playing them very wrong. Half the reason I love paladins, particularly elf paladins, is because they are incredibly defensive in melee. As has been mentioned, a polearm's a great weapon defensively - but a sword/shield combo is better in a lot of situations (such as, oh, lacking a norem polearm - at least a disarm only costs you one defense rather than two here).

As for eq... a paladin's the easiest thing in the game to equip, if you ask me. Doesn't need much of either hit/dam or saves to do fine, can fight pretty much anything (and particularly evil/undead mobs) on its own... how you had trouble doing the Factions is beyond me.

Agree with this too.

My reasoning behind supporting the idea isn't to try and provide a boost for Paladins as anyone who has seen my responses to the many 'tone up paladins' threads will know I don't think they need boosting, and I love the class. I just, well, like the idea. I know that doesn't make much sense at all - but neither do a lot of things. In hindsight, and after reading a few of the responses, I don't think it should go through, though. I still like the idea though.

Dey

Oh, I like the original idea, though the ability for a charge to be magical does up the paladin's strength vs giant/ogre melee's (as well as other combos with vulns) and that benefit itself is simply not needed.

Mounted Charge incorporating Poleweap damage type