I can see the appeal of this but most of the changes you list so far are increases in power, and this is a very large undertaking that would produce many unforseen balance problems. Also I don't like the idea of any class other than a qclass or cabal member being able to detect hidden or camo.
Integrated Paths (Berserker) 2.0
I believe those changes are examples to get you in the mindset of what Cel is proposing. That's where the balancing comes in. 
And Pali, screw you for being able to perfectly articulate exactly what I was trying to say. <3
This is half true. Yes, it is possible for some other combinations to get the thunderclap effect through specialization (I spend my picks on headbutt or haymaker as a berserker). However, the stone giant perk remains as they get this for FREE. Other races/classes (thunderclap is not available to everyone, even if they want it) have to spend very valuable selections to get that bonus. So, stone giants stay unique in these terms.
so a minotaur could get charge AND boulder throw o.0... i would never roll a caster after that.
so a minotaur could get charge AND boulder throw o.0... i would never roll a caster after that.
I am pretty sure, unless I misread, that minotaurs would not, because that is a skill specific to stone giants.
I really like this idea. Obviously as was stated, there are a few things to specifically target in your examples that others and myself would think are too powerful or unbalanced and so forth. However, and this is to those people, keep in my that this would obviously come under some pretty heavy testing to help insure balance. In addition, if I am going to dedicate myself to gaining mastery in charge, I am forgoing getting better at for example defenses, or better headbutting, roar, etc. The main thing is that this really would not change the classes so much that they would be like completely learning a new class. However, you would have the ability to customize what you want to be really good at, and what you are going to sacrifice to do so. Or have a more across the board mediocre ability at all the skills, but not receive any of the benefits of being a master at those skills.
Edit: Also, it was probably just a typo, but you stated that the racial perks would be selectable, but they seem pretty set. Also, it seems like they are not specifically racial perks, but perks relative to your race/class combo, not just specifically race, please clarify.
Exactly right! No combo will ever get a new skill in this system. A berserker can never get any of the warrior lores. A warrior can't get regeneration, and so forth.
This also applies to racial skills. Just like a storm giant warrior can't get bodyslam, this system will not give any free skills.
Also, just like our current system, the racial perk adjusts based on the race/class combo. Storm giant warriors get a free bash perk whereas storm giant berserkers get a bodyslam perk. In the end, this means that many racial skills ARE unique to each combo.
Racial bonuses are hardwired. A storm giant berserker can't exchange their bodyslam bonus for something else. I may have made a typo somewhere about that...can you quote it for me and I will fix it.
So, in the end, a combo will get the same racial skills (unique to each race and non-selectable) as now, three automatic skill boosts (non-selectable and unique to each race/class combo), a number of automatic skill boosts based on the class (non-selectable), and five selectable skill boosts.
On a side note, a lot of this DOES look overpowered. This might be because we are imagining using these masteries against the CURRENT classes. We have to remember that the OPPONENT will also have their own masteries. I'd sure like to play an invoker against a overly charge-happy, boulder-throwing stone giant if I could use the masteries in my invoker examples. Again, sounds like fun! 
Like some people have correctly said, these skill choices are just examples. Basically, we would need to draw up templates for all the classes THEN rebalance it. These are just the first step.
Furthermore, yes, these skills ARE stronger than before. The base class will be quite a bit stronger than the base class now. The idea behind this is to lessen (not nullify/replace) the importance of full sets of high-end EQ, especially for melees. Don't worry though, that base +2 avg damage will never replace a superior weapon (and of course will stack with it!). One reason that it is there is to represent that a berserker using a weapon hits a bit harder than most other people using the same weapon. Like I mentioned before, this will require some toning of the high-end equipment (which needs to be toned anyways). For the full rationale, refer back to the EQ section of my original post...and yes, again, I think this will take some balancing (again, which needs to be done anyways and it makes future balancing much easier). Nothing beyond our capabilities though!
I'd still like to hear from a lot more people on this! Where are you Mindflayer, Kyzarius, Mudder, and everyone else? Your opinions mean a lot to me! And Aulian...you need to talk to the labor standards office about this overwork...you still haven't made it home yet!
Next' date=' we have racial perks. These are automatic selections that depend solely on your race. Each race will have three 'bonus' [b']selections for each class, called racial perks. A storm giant berserker and warrior will get different racial perks. This is ensures that all choices are useful and do not overlap (a warrior getting a wasted bonus to bodyslam for example).
Here the quote for you.
Thanks and corrected, along with some other minor typos!
Sorry to be a nay sayer, but I think the system is too complicated and messy.
I will admit I did not read the entire proposal, which is why I've avoided commenting thus far. However with this post I promise to finish reading, however I just see this system as incredibly un-newbie friendly and needlessly complicated.
Not that I don't get it, I understand the concept and principals. It just doesn't work for me. Something like a few paths to choose from, or a tree type system where you pick a package that leads to other packages, etc. Would, I think, be better. It would be easier to display aswell.
EDIT: In the end, too much customization at the expense of flow and ease. Any MUD I've ever looked at that had this level of customization just wasn't worth it for me to even attempt to learn, it was usually a bad MUD and I immediately kept looking.
I must say, I really like this idea Celerity and with all the years you have had here...I don't see why your idea's are not given a bit more consideration.
Hmm, I think it would be nice to have an (Alt FL) where the players (as well as the Imm's) could actually see working products of this system for some of the basic classes...just throwing that out there...for anybody who wants to run with it. 
I must say, I really like this idea Celerity and with all the years you have had here...I don't see why your idea's are not given a bit more consideration.
Hmm, I think it would be nice to have an (Alt FL) where the players (as well as the Imm's) could actually see working products of this system for some of the basic classes...just throwing that out there...for anybody who wants to run with it.
I would have to say that there is a lot to consider from those of administration in a game like this. They have to consider both where we as players would like to see the game go, and where they intend the game to go. Obviously not everyone is going to see eye to eye, so you gotta pick and choose. I think that this idea, based upon the positive response, will definitely get some serious consideration.
Sorry to be a nay sayer' date=' but I think the system is too complicated and [i']messy.
I will admit I did not read the entire proposal, which is why I've avoided commenting thus far. However with this post I promise to finish reading, however I just see this system as incredibly un-newbie friendly and needlessly complicated.
Not that I don't get it, I understand the concept and principals. It just doesn't work for me. Something like a few paths to choose from, or a tree type system where you pick a package that leads to other packages, etc. Would, I think, be better. It would be easier to display aswell.
EDIT: In the end, too much customization at the expense of flow and ease. Any MUD I've ever looked at that had this level of customization just wasn't worth it for me to even attempt to learn, it was usually a bad MUD and I immediately kept looking.
I don't see how rolling a class with the same skills that already exist and then choosing 5 to improve upon is needlessly complicated for a player, or unfriendly to noobs.
Yes it would take a bit of time for players to memorize the newer fuctions of said skills/spells, but that's what help files are for, I fail to see how this is more complicated then adding additional paths/trees.
Mudder does have a point in that it certainly SEEMS like it'd be bringing a massive amount of fluidity to every class, so that learning how a class fights would be very difficult for newer players.
However, I don't think it really complicates the classes all that much, especially with only a handful of selectable bonuses for each class. Frankly, this is nowhere near the level of customization that crusaders get. This is classes being able to add a little bit of flair to a few of their abilities. While some of the bonuses used as examples would over complicate things and make it hard to predict what you're up against (though, that is part of the point of this change - to mix things up so that every paladin isn't the exact same skill-wise, but slightly different), that's easy to fix by not making those examples the bonuses and instead putting in others that are still useful but simpler to factor into PK (extra hitroll rather than thunderclap, for example). A zerk will still be a zerk under this... he'll just have a few bonuses that you won't be able to predict without fighting him (specifically, a few more than the couple he has now... all Celerity's really proposing here is a slight extension of the selectable skill system already in use for a number of classes).
My only real objection to this idea is that, from the perspective of someone who is not a coder and so I could be entirely wrong here, this seems like it'd be a pain in the rectum to implement and would take a huge amount of time to get working right. FL's current class system still, in my opinion, works just fine... and I've long been of the opinion that if it isn't broke, there's no need to fix it, and improvement can wait until the things that ARE broken are fixed.
I've long been of the opinion that if it isn't broke' date=' there's no need to fix it[/quote']
That's kind of how i feel. I mean im a total newbie in this mud, ive had one pinn and a 47 and now my new toon, but the classes seem fine, one or two could use a tweek here or there, but at the end of the day they're fine.
But then again, this would make tweaks like that in the future easier, ya know?
Oh, I fully agree that in the long term this system certainly would make tweaking and toning a lot easier and more specific to combos rather than affecting the whole race/class (thereby allowing us to give elf rangers a boost without overpowering rangers or elves as a whole). I'm just saying it seems it'd require a crapton of work NOW to implement in the first place - once implemented, maintenance would be easier than it is now.
Oh' date=' I fully agree that in the long term this system certainly would make tweaking and toning a lot easier and more specific to combos rather than affecting the whole race/class (thereby allowing us to give elf rangers a boost without overpowering rangers or elves as a whole). I'm just saying it seems it'd require a crapton of work NOW to implement in the first place - once implemented, maintenance would be easier than it is now.[/quote']
Yea we dont pay the imms enough
, thats alot of work to do for free.
I think everyone is forgetting that elven rangers get scout automastered.
I think everyone is forgetting that elven rangers get scout automastered.
Overpowered. Needs to be toned ASAP.
Well, I for one would be more than willing to help out on any testing of this system, as I am sure there are others that would be willing to do so as well. In fact, I am even willing to pay to see this go through.
I read all 6 pages of this on my phone the other day, and think it needs a bump.
Upon introduction, I recommend a weekend\week long Halloween madness to work the bugs in balance out. Other than that, I think you have already shown how beneficial this could be to the MUD, and the responses\discourse has been mostly positive for a reason. I think there was some confusion in the first 4 pages, but the good clearly outweighs any potential bad.
In coordination with this, I think we'd really have to beef up and streamline the helpfiles we have online, so people and new folks can better understand the system.
I love RP'ing humans for some reason, but find it difficult to compete and have fun because of how underpowered\difficult they are in so many classes
PRO:
Creative choice
Ease of balance
Viability of more race\class combos
Skill > EQ philosophy
"Fresh" PK
CON:
Even steeper learning curve for new people
I personally think the learning curve would be mitigated by having a fresh system like this, people will be more willing to stay.
Humans are not underpowered at all. They just aren't specialized at all either.