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Paladin Rework Proposal

I read through the Paladin thread and started collating the different thoughts with what was offered in older posts. This provided me with a set of goals and a basic framework from which to target improvements.

Then, after spending some (waaay too much) time, I put it all together into a formal, fleshed-out proposal of a complete rework of the class. The paladin I proposed can be summed up like this:

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The Paladin is a skirmisher, relying on their superior endurance and mobility to land devastating charges, only to withdraw to recover and begin the onslaught anew, working towards the final chase with inevitability. They are the hunter-seekers. Wielding their holy weapons (sacred blade), paladins make their opponents flee and then run them down until they fall in exhaustion. Some paladins are better at forcing the initial flee (initiative), while others have advantages in following through to the kill (pursuit). Trying to beat a Paladin with skirmishing tactics is remarkably dangerous and difficult (tenacity). Some paladins lead others as a holy commander (squire, divine touch) whereas others rely on their on their own valor and faith (heroism, holy avenger). While all paladins are excellent mounted combatants, a few dedicate themselves to their mount completely and are rewarded with devotion in turn (summon Goliath). Whether a paladin hunts their wounded quarry with fervor or calls upon the Divine to purge hordes of their enemies (holy word), the paladin will serve their cause ably and gloriously.

Goals of the rework:

  • Maintain paladin inflexibility
  • Maintain paladin poor finishing
  • Maintain paladin poor debuffing
  • Maintain wide gearing needs (hit/dam/ac/saves/etc) (few direct stat passive bonuses)
  • Maintain newbie friendliness
  • Maintain overall theme of classic mounted paladin
  • Limit number of new skills/spells (coder friendly)
  • Improve group friendliness
  • Improve cabal friendliness
  • Improve strength against supernatural evils
  • Improve strength against rogues
  • Improve strength against neutrals
  • Improve weapon selection
  • Improve blinding capability
  • Add holy weapon concept
  • Rework Goliath/Heroism/Holy Word concepts
  • Add class build customization (paths/lores/etc)
  • Rework bad/broken skills
  • Replace stock titles

Key points of the rework:

  • Still heavily dependent on player chasing to land kills
  • Still inflexible in combat - not many skill/spell options to actively use
  • More survivable than a melee but less than a cleric
  • The paladin's holy weapon is more newbie-friendly than a DK/Crusader's kill-based weapon, but much less powerful. More comparable to blood vow
  • Selectable blind skill, but at great opportunity cost (lose a weapon proficiency)
  • Weapon selection is poor and the holy weapon severely limits the damage noun/type (very bad at exploiting non-holy/fire vulns)
  • More Tribunal/Knight friendly due to heroism/charmie rework and greater effectiveness against neutrals
  • Selectable skills, but no paths
  • Goliath/Heroism/Holy Word incorporated into selectables
  • Racial perks and storm giants
  • New titles!

The paladin rework proposal is as follows:

Remove skills:

  • Goliath
  • Heroism
  • Holy Word

Add skills (*selectable)

  • Spear (level 1)
  • Kick (level 13)
  • Weapon Training* (level 25)
  • Mount Control Lore* (level 30)
  • Martial Lore* (level 35)
  • Tenacity (level 37)
  • Holy Rites Lore* (level 40)
  • Sacred Blade (level 43)
  • Knighthood Lore* (level 45)
  • Paladin Lore* (level 49)

Current Skill Changes:

  • Turn Undead: Lags two rounds. Increased damaged (+50%) and chance to hysteria if the target is above 80% HP.
  • Lay on Hands: Group healing skill (not spell!) that heals 15% maximum HP, mana, and moves. It automatically cures any poison, plague and embrace for the group (without a check). It drains the caster for 2 ticks. 24 tick cooldown. 3 round lag. No mana cost.
  • Magic Strike: Add a check for current buffs/debuffs to narrow the list of choices to be cast. No wrath, but include flamestrike, dispel evil. If opponent is not evil, do not cast dispel evil.
  • Mounted Combat: Functions at full effectiveness on any mount. Full bonus charge damage bonus from a two-handed polearm/spear. Does weapon's damage type for vulns/resists/etc. 75% bonus damage from a one-handed polearm/spear or two-handed other weapon. 50% from a one-handed non-polearm/spear. Two-handed weapons must be wielded in two hands to work. May charge with any type of weapon. Inflicted lag is 4 rounds if using one weapon or 2 rounds if dual wielding. Bonus damage/lag lost during cooldown. Two hour cooldown on mounted charge. Thrust does not dismount. Rescues with mounted charge.
  • Wrath (aff/mal spell): Remove the damage scaling from heroism/holy word and target health. Does high holy damage (aff save check) with a two round lag and chance to curse on aff save fail (mal save check). Casts (and damage scales) at spell level. Same damage to neutrals/goods.
  • Dispel Evil (aff spell): Inflicts 50% of wrath damage for 40% of the mana cost to evils. 1 round lag. Extra 10% damage against supernatural evils (lich, vamp, undead, demon).

Add Races:

  • Storm Giant

Racial Perks:

  • Elf: Channeling (passive skill): Gain +2 spell level when wielding a worthy staff (rare or unique only)
  • Human: Gain shield expertise (level 28)
  • Half-Elf: Boon (passive skill): +1 hp/mana/mv per level. +5% hp/mana/mv regen
  • Dwarf: Gain the frenzy spell (level 28)
  • Storm Giant: Blitz (passive skill): 50% chance to add 30% extra charge damage as a separate lightning-based hit on a charge. Stacks on base charge damage, so it will be modified by mounted charge bonuses if applicable.

New Skills:

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Tenacity (passive skill, level 37): After a target flees, the target gains a one tick affect which allows the paladin to see/target them, regardless of any blindness, various forms, hide, or any other vision/where hiding ability.

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Sacred Blade (mental spell, level 43): A paladin may bless their weapon with an inner strength. The weapon permanently gains the bless flag. The weapon ignores all resists/immunities/mana shield and also ignores the protection spell for the duration. The damage type/noun becomes divine power. It cannot be sacrificed for the duration. The spell is applied in a similar way as blood vow (single weapon, lag, duration), and the weapon may only be touched by the owner. The weapon gains 1 average damage for the duration.

Selectables:

Weapon Training (level 25): Choose one weapon or smite. If the paladin already has that weapon type, gain expertise in it. Otherwise, gain the weapon type.

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Smite (passive skill): Upgrades kick to smite. Smite does kick damage and dirt-kick blind for 1 tick, regardless of room type. Does double damage if the opponent is already blind.

Still laughing about the inclusion of kick? A rare inclusion of an active skill for a paladin, and it even blinds, but is it worth using? Then I can't be a whip paladin...

Mount Control Lore (level 30): Initiative or Pursuit

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Initiative (passive skill): The paladin strikes first in every round if mounted. The paladin's offensive skills and spells cannot be reversed or blocked in any way (mantis, counter, spell-turning, predict, mana shield, etc) if mounted.

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Pursuit (passive skill): Move cost reduction/regen similar to old heroism when mounted. If mounted, upon a successful flee by an opponent, they have a 50% chance to instead fail and take (10 of weapon dam type unblockable damage with relevant modifiers) damage to HP, mana and moves.

Initiative ensures that the paladin's limited options are not immediately shut down by hard counters. Charge the blademaster heathens, call your faith upon that evil cleric, or burn the false invoker to ashes. Terrible if they can't counter you though.

Pursuit allows the paladin to press their hard-won advantage into a kill by offering both a desperately-needed small exhaustion debuff and locking their opponent down longer. Terrible if they can counter all your skills though.

Do you want more abilities (pursuit) or ensure the few you already have will work (initiative)? Both are passives.

Martial Lore (level 35): Backcutter or Blind Fighting

A deceptively simple choice between always-useful offense/punishment and survival against your hardest foes, heavy melees. More passives.

Holy Rites Lore (level 40): Fervor or Holy Word

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Fervor (passive skill): Upgrades Wrath to do increased base damage to hurt enemies. Damage % increase by target's (current HP % -10) when 50% or lower HP, to a minimum of +0%. For example: 45% target health = +35% damage; 5% health = +0% damage). Upgrades Tenacity to cause any regened hp/mana/moves to be gained by the paladin instead of the target for the duration. Tenacity now stacks per additional flee to 2 ticks instead of 1.

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Holy Word (passive skill): Upgrades Flamestrike to keep dealing fire damage (25-33% base, aff saveable) per round for one tick. Upgrades Dispel Evil to now target the entire group (as per sharpmetal).

Fervor gives a paladin some finishing power, but is difficult to use well. The tenacity upgrade on the other hand is always good, making any dancing flee or regen-depended strategy very difficult to use against the paladin. It all means nothing if you can get them to start running and keep them near however...

Flamestrike already targets the enemy group, but Holy Word's per-round burning damage against an entire army combined with a group-slamming dispel evil will really hurt those necros (and Watchers with weak charmies and Nexians hiding behind their charmies). Maybe more importantly, it offers you a way to hurt people while not being in combat with them.

Reward the chase or reward the skirmish? Neither offers any new skills, only passive upgrades.

Knighthood Lore (level 45): Squire or Heroism

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Squire (mental spell): Creates a (spell level - 1) charmie. Will guard owner (like a mammoth). Medium size, disarms, trips and protection from evil. Intended to be general support. Average physical damage output (slash ac) and health, but impeded by lower level.

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Heroism (passive skill): Increases the paladin's THAC0 significantly (in line with dedicated melees). Maintains full mounted charge damage bonus (not lag) during cooldown. 25% improved charge bonus damage from non-optimal weapon (100% from a one-handed polearm/spear or two-handed other weapon. 75% from a one-handed non-polearm/spear). Two-handed spear mounted charge has a chance to bleed. Two-handed polearm mounted charge has a chance to wound. Lags for 4 rounds regardless if dual wielding. Immune to fear/hysteria.

Feeling down in the dumps after that repeated bashing? Those heavy melees whipping you to shreds? Let your trusty squire jump between you and buy you the time you need to charge again while giving you some extra melee output. Significantly better if you can gain the spell level. A bit of a homage to the old 1.0 days of the Knight squires.

Heroism lets you become the heavy melee, allowing you to hit more often and giving you well-deserved weapon selection flexibility. It lets you spam charge for damage all the while making sure your proficiencies stay high against those who cause fear.

Empower yourself offensively or gain a decent charmie to take a more balanced approach?

Champion Lore (level 49): Holy Avenger, Summon Goliath, or Divine Touch

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Holy Avenger (passive skill): Upgrades Sacred Blade with the 'holy fire' damage noun and type (hits both fire and holy vulns). It adds the flaming flag and causes fear (5% round/proc neutrals, 15% round/proc evils, 25% round/proc for evil qraces). This fear penetrates fear immunity. Ignores a further (spell level - 45)% damage reduction. Increase weapon average damage by 4 (total, +3 over Sacred Blade).

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Summon Goliath (mental spell): Creates spell level mountable charmie. Excellent HP (~black dragon). Large size. Kicks, bashes and has protection from evil. Permanent duration, recastable every 24 hours. Intended to be a healthy lagger. Average physical damage output (bash ac). When mounted on Goliath, the paladin has -25% heavy lag time and damage (thrust/bash/rush/bodyslam/etc) and is untrippable (air thrash/hurricane dismounts for 1 tick). Goliath's kick has a chance to headbutt (25% and zerk chance to shatter protective shield) or thunderclap (25% casted as per spell level).

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Divine Touch (passive skill): Upgrades Lay on Hands to heal 20% of maximum HP, mana and moves. It also casts esuna, enlarge, haste, frenzy, sanctuary, armor and shield at spell level. Cooldown cut to 12 hours and lag to 2 rounds. No mana cost and drained for 2 ticks.

Holy avenger makes your weapon a lot better. Really great if you can actually hit your opponent. Really bad if you want to use a vuln weapon like any sensible melee.

Goliath grants another charmie option with tanking and wildcard support benefits, including your only real option to lag. Until something happens to it, then you are a dismounted, charmie-less paladin. That isn't a good thing.

Divine touch gives an insta-spell up and recovery for you and your ten best friends but is hard to use for both spelling-up and healing due to timing concerns. It greatly reduces your need for consumables, but on the other hand, these spells could be gained elsewhere without using this ability. Then there is the unfortunate matter of getting dispelled.

Omg, level 50 haste and enlarge on tap? How could I not choose this? Wait, Goliath as a mob and it bashes and thunderclaps?? Holy Avenger can turn OP weapons even more OP! How can I choose??

Titles:

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Level    Male    Female

1    Stalwart    Stalwart

2    Fervent     Fervent

3    Blessed    Blessed

4    Defender    Defender

5    Acolyte of Arms    Acolyte of Arms

6    Defender Priest    Defender Priestess

7    Martial Priest    Martial Priestess

8    Worthy        Worthy

9    Squire Initiate    Squire Initiate

10    Squire    Squire

11    Sergeant Squire    Sergeant Squire

12    Rider    Rider

13    Blessed Rider    Blessed Rider

14    Man-at-arms    Woman-at-arms

15    Champion    Champion

16    Champion Priest    Champion Priestess

17    Mistress Champion    Mistress Champion

18    Pious Champion    Pious Champion

19    Paladin Aspirant    Paladin Aspirant

20    Paladin        Paladin

21    Paladin Sergeant    Paladin Sergeant

22    Knight Initiate    Lady Initiate

23    Knight    Lady

24    Devout Knight    Devout Lady

25    Paladin Knight    Paladin Lady

26    Annoited Knight    Annoited Lady

27    Knight Priest    Lady Priestess

28    Paladin Adventurer    Paladin Adventurer

29    Errant Paladin    Errant Paladin

30    Lord Errant    Dame Errant

31    Entrusted Lord Errant    Entrusted Dame Errant

32    Chevalier    Chevalier

33    Knight Chevalier    Lady Chevalier

34    Grand Chavalier    Grand Chevalier

35    Knight Commander    Lady Commander

36    Lord Commander    Dame Commander

37    Initiate of the Inner Flame    Initiate of the Inner Flame

38    Consecrated of the Inner Flame    Consecrated of the Inner Flame

39    Paladin Knight of the Inner Flame    Paladin Lady of the Inner Flame

40    Lord Paladin    Dame Paladin

41    Grand Paladin    Grand Paladin

42    Initiate of the Sacred Blade    Initiate of the Sacred Blade

43    Bearer of the Sacred Blade    Bearer of the Sacred Blade

44    Paladin Companion    Paladin Companion

45    Hero    Heroine

46    Paladin Hero    Paladin Heroine

47    Lord Paladin Hero    Dame Paladin Heroine

48    Scion Apparent Scion Apparent

49    Paladin Scion    Paladin Scion

50 Base    Champion Lord Paladin    Champion Dame Paladin

50 Holy Avenger    Holy Scion of the Sacred Blade    Holy Scion of the Sacred Blade

50 Summon Goliath    Supreme Lord Chevalier       Supreme Dame Chevalier

50 Divine Touch    Knight Apostle of the Inner Flame    Lady Apostle of the Inner Flame

Edit: Typos and elves require a a rare/unique staff for their perk

Edit 2: Clarified mounted charge cooldown at 2 ticks. Added storm giant as a base race. Added storm giant perk. Removed request bonus from holy word (leftover mistake from brainstorming).

Edited

I thought you did a great job @Celerity

Now this, is a paladin class I would play.  Replayability and specialization.  The racials make it so every paladin has further specialization.  You can use synergies to tailor your armor differently.

 

I like it.  The only thing I would add is making sure the elf passive stacks with +spelllevel eq.  Also, frenzy for dwarves?  I'd give them berserk instead only because it is more fitting for dwarf rp.

I really like this. The skills are varied and choices seem like they could be tough. The flavor all fits

 

You mentioned it in the post about keeping Paladins around the same ‘finishing power’ as before. Two minions that can lag and have special abilities seems like a bit much to me, if you add in their ability to keep people in combat. I admittedly do not know that much about class balance, but it seems like a lot of offensive punch for the class. 

 

It’s not a problem of quality, but maybe of quantity. The new stuff you’ve put up here looks awesome and fun for sure.

So this paladin could have two charmies if selected?  Squire and a Goliath with bash, dirt?  Sign me up!

58 minutes ago, Mmm Beer said:

So this paladin could have two charmies if selected?  Squire and a Goliath with bash, dirt?  Sign me up!

I see a problem with the elf Paladin weilding a staff and making beast pets.  Then just removing the staff.  So that's my only thing.  I'd play one if it got those cool mals.

Edited

I would be super excited to play this rework. It seems like a really fun class to get into lots of skirmishes with.

See this is an absolutely excellent idea.

5 hours ago, Iznazti said:

I see a problem with the elf Paladin weilding a staff and making beast pets.  Then just removing the staff.  So that's my only thing.  I'd play one if it got those cool mals.

Can be coded to check if you're still wearing a staff. If the staff is not present the mob realigns to the correct level.

Actually my contribution would be to suggest that with some of the more agressive paths they should forgo a little of their healing ability.

Love it.

This addresses the how but not the why.

I was under the impression Paladins weren't even close to being in the bottom half of classes as far as viability goes.

There's like half a dozen other classes that are more in need of a rework than paladins.

Off the top of my head:

Lich

Bmg

Monk

Healer

Dream Psi

Thieves

Cool, so make some threads, and propose changes. We are talking about pally changes in a thread about pallies. Please dont derail it?

Edited

4 hours ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Actually my contribution would be to suggest that with some of the more agressive paths they should forgo a little of their healing ability.

If not specifically healing, then maybe adding some of their defensive tools to the current selectables. 

 

The only concern I would have is moving them too much toward DK. DK is more offensively focused, and Paladins more defensively. By forgoing that, we end up with good aligned dk of sorts.

Honestly i wouldn't have a problem with pallies becoming more dk like

Oh, I'm not derailing it. Talking about the priority of paladins changes is still within the scope of the topic of paladin changes.

Judging by https://theforsakenlands.com/forum/45-hot-changes/, which is our only transparent gauge of workflow that we plebs have, if I had to estimate it based on that I'd say we had around 10 hours of dev time this year. 

Assuming we get a similar budget for the upcoming year and this is probably at best a half day project (and at worst potentially much, much longer) then we're talking half (or more) of the yearly estimated dev time.

I'm merely pointing out that there are higher priority projects that are more worthy of investigation. The paladin class, while boring, is still serviceable and more importantly its already fairly balanced as is (my personal opinion is it's actually stronger than most other classes already).  

So the proposed project takes a working, fairly well balanced and complete class and using up most of the dev time we have then proceeds to add a bunch of new things to it then we pray that the end result is still balanced? The track record suggests that won't be the case.

If the scope of the project was narrower then I'd be on board, you could make paladins more interesting as well as all the underperforming classes at the same time with a new ability or two each and some number tweaks.

19 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

Honestly i wouldn't have a problem with pallies becoming more dk like

I do if only because the class identity would be lost. Paladins have always been a hard to kill, hard to get kills with type class. They’re newbie friendly in that way. I think maintaining the defensive focus is important to them. 

 

I’m not saying they can’t have more finishing potential, but there should be some potent downsides to going that way. 

 

Adding cute crit, trance, virtuous light/armor, stuff like that to the selectables would give an option to be more focused in a direction.

I meant more sacrificing some of their defense for some added offense is all

That kind of defeats the class imagery though. Like paladin is a heavily armored holy warrior. Giving them less defense and more offense kind of breaks that immersion. 

I do like most of the rework, but giving pets I'm kind of against as well, as we have rangers and necro. I am just unsure how we make them feel unique, as it just sounds like we are giving them basically necro pets (pets with a good bit of life) and it can bash? This is I guess alright except now he also has healing and melee damage output? That's probably pushing the realms of balance.

I read this as a plethora of good ideas, doesn't mean we have to take it to gospel. I liked reading this, a lot.

Doesn't mean it's going to be implemented with no questions asked. I'd like to see paladin changed more than most classes and I give props to celerity for taking the initiative to give us something fun to read, imagine and hopefully spark some ideas for a change or five.