I thought this wasn't about undead? Can you please not derail it.
I'm willing to discuss it if you can be civil but if you're just going to accuse me of having agendas or being biased or that I only suggest changes to suit myself then there's no point.
What you're trying to suggest would be terrible for any vuln race, not just undead. There's a reason ice arrows aren't an easy grab, they're meant to be limited in quantity and a reward for the well prepared for a limited duration.
I think it is unfair to compare any vuln arrows to undead vuln arrows. No other race is completely immune to every non vuln arrow.
I also think archer rangers should be able to make holy arrows.
The OP was regarding holy arrows. He just veiled it with other stuff. And frankly he is right but not for the reasons he posted. He's right because of how "OP" undead regen is right now.
I'm sorry that undead can get hit with a sleep song. I'll try and remember that when I'm poisoning myself to avoid sleep/blackjack/strangle/hypnosis/ecstacsy/sleep arrows/monk beads/etc. And planar seal? You know that works on everyone right, not just undead? It just has a more profound effect on undead.
It isn't about undead, that's just the example I used because it's the most blatantly obvious example. It's just as true of frost arrows as it is holy.
It's not the same because fire giants can still be hit by non-frost arrows, can't paralyze you (natively) and aren't getting close to the same regen. Maybe a fire giant zerk with healthy perk and the right edge gets close?
It's no coincidence the undead combos you see being rolled are taking advantage of undead regen + class regen skills.
I just don't think the statistics back up what you guys are saying, there are some extremely experienced players on the undeads at the moment and I wouldn't say theyre cleaning up.
Are there any examples you could provide?
Yea the fact that in FLs history you couldn't name 5 characters that used any rare arrows regularly besides consecrated. Maybe that indicates that the concept of situational arrows requiring a rare slot makes them wholly unappealing. The only reason people ever use consecrated is they are so easy to get to; even then its only neutrals yhat can take adcantsge of them. A goodie mid pk sitting in such an open spot, and being calmed? Goooood luck. Move them out like frost arrows and noone would ever use them again
2 hours ago, Mmm Beer said:
It's not the same because fire giants can still be hit by non-frost arrows, can't paralyze you (natively) and aren't getting close to the same regen. Maybe a fire giant zerk with healthy perk and the right edge gets close?
It's no coincidence the undead combos you see being rolled are taking advantage of undead regen + class regen skills.
Explain?
Theres a ninja (cure light?), Warrior (berserk), Bmage (healing thing)... Is that it?
15 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
Yea the fact that in FLs history you couldn't name 5 characters that used any rare arrows regularly besides consecrated. Maybe that indicates that the concept of situational arrows requiring a rare slot makes them wholly unappealing. The only reason people ever use consecrated is they are so easy to get to; even then its only neutrals yhat can take adcantsge of them. A goodie mid pk sitting in such an open spot, and being calmed? Goooood luck. Move them out like frost arrows and noone would ever use them again
People who make the effort, are devestating with them. I think skree used mhan-tors rage?
40 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
Yea the fact that in FLs history you couldn't name 5 characters that used any rare arrows regularly besides consecrated. Maybe that indicates that the concept of situational arrows requiring a rare slot makes them wholly unappealing. The only reason people ever use consecrated is they are so easy to get to; even then its only neutrals yhat can take adcantsge of them. A goodie mid pk sitting in such an open spot, and being calmed? Goooood luck. Move them out like frost arrows and noone would ever use them again
Before Elemental canyon was reworked, the lightning bolts were avg 32 and had the lightning flag.
So.... literally all of my characters with ranged weapons were using those.
Where they non rare, and therefore you could gather them in viable quantities?
I also used mahn tors rage for that very reason. 36 avg with +16 damroll and a proc that hits hard. These are also nonrare. But it's also that they can be gathered. Noone is killing the baron 2 or 3 times just for arrows, same with noraoth. They are great and unique but rarely worth it even in most fringe cases. Had you had to kill a level 50 mob for 100 horn bolts, and they where rare, noone would use them
You understand that they're meant to be of limited quantity right? Just like tuo scrolls, transient decapitation or nectar? Archers get the benefit of bypassing that issue.
It's a pretty standard model for consumables, theres a reason you don't get unlimited mega-elixirs in a final fantasy game and its not just because they're strong. It's so an extra layer of strategy is added to allow for the potential to outplay, aka adding depth. You choose when and where to carefully use your limited resource for additional gain.
Making the mob neutral so anyone can farm it is fine.
Giving archers the ability to make holy arrows is fine (although if I had to nitpick I'd say give this ability to good rangers only, neutral and evil get something different).
Giving every fired weapon user unlimited access to vuln arrows is bad design.
edit additional thought
Maybe the discussion should be about undead and their ability to only take damage from vuln arrows? 0% damage from physical arrows, 25 - 50% damage from magical arrows, vuln left unchanged. Thats how I'd do it.
7 hours ago, Ulmusdorn said:
Explain?
Theres a ninja (cure light?), Warrior (berserk), Bmage (healing thing)... Is that it?
Just noticing the trend in undead seems to be classes that naturally have great regen. I don't know of a warrior but Ninja, BMG, Shaman, and a Zerk coming up. All great HP regen classes on their own with class skills.
2 hours ago, Wade said:
Giving every fired weapon user unlimited access to vuln arrows is bad design.
You realize that's like 4 classes? And evils can't use them.
Warrior, ninja, ranger bard (?)
I am totally fine with keeping vuln arrows rare and harder to get. This makes perfect sense to me.
If you are fighting someone and you didn't have the time or desire to pick up vuln arrows you can still hit them for less damage with normal arrows.
My issue is solely with holy arrows and undead, and my issue is two-fold.
Only holy arrows work on them, therefore they are necessary, unfortunately they come in a tiny stack of 25 arrows. You cannot argue that this is by design because these arrows were implemented when the undead were not immune to every other arrow, so it made sense to have harsher limits on holy arrows at the time.
My other gripe is how difficult it is for good align to get those arrows. I would argue overall that good is a greater enemy of undead than neutral, so it stands to reason they should have equal if not better access to holy arrows.
I understand there are lots of holy weapons and I am not trying to make it harder for the undead, I would even be all for reducing the average damage on those holy arrows in the process of making them more accessible.
I think undead regen is pretty absurd right now, but I am not calling for a nerf, they do take more damage in general. I am glad they prevented undead from using bandages though, undead regen + slow is pretty damn insane. At least if you roll a bmg you can argue that this attrition game is part of the class kit. I dont think any other class can "abuse" the regen undead have. Sure a zerk will heal a little extra but to me it is no big deal.
Re: fletchery + holy arrows:
Why not give it to good rangers?
Elves could probably get a big ranger lore bonus too (eg fletchery prof bonus). They really should be made into an excellent choice for rangers.
I have no issue with neutralizing the mob (so goods can kill it) and upping the holy arrows to 100 per stack.
7 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:
I have no issue with neutralizing the mob (so goods can kill it) and upping the holy arrows to 100 per stack.
I reckon even one or the other would be sufficient.
100% agreed. If they are accessible more than once per world shift as a goodie, the Holy arrows portion has been solved, and with noone else being immune then the fringe case frost arrows aren't super relevant