Big Change Ideas (long)

This will be kinda long, probably rambly. Try to keep an open mind. I’m doing idea spaghetti, throwing it out there and seeing what sticks. 

Remove smokeables from the game. This is most contentious, I’m sure. The number of buffs people can get, and the monotony of farming consumables sucks. 

To combat the above: add more potions and pills that give buffs. Give them weak, normal, and strong versions, available at 20/35/50. Vendors available 24 hours a day to sell them. Detect invis, detect magic, invis, fly are the biggest. 

Drop save vs spell on gear to 40-50% of current. 

Maledictives last 50-75% of current duration. 

Healing consumables are nodrop, nouncurse. 

Cure crit heals 40-45 hp max. 

Spellforged items only give utility spells. Create spring, create food, detect invis, etc. 

Add a vial type item gated by an aggro, level 40ish mob. 

Make glimmering staff easier to get.

Any spell castable by one or a limited number of classes gone, virtuous light and flesh armor are big ones.  

Spells do 10% less damage.

I know there’s an item overhaul ongoing, but I had some thoughts on that too.

Gear with saves adds up to 3 different saves, 2 of it has save vs spell. 

Items put into tiers based on where they come from: end of gear, desolation, despair, etc are tier 1, soloable mobs are tier 2, easy mobs at 50 are tier 3  

Tier 1 can have up to 3 primary stat types: saves, hit/dam, hp/mana, ac(as an enchant), and skills?

Tier 2 have 2, tier 3 have 1. 

Each tier has max stat stat values depending on where it’s equipped. 

One unique per per character limit.

Just a couple things that crossed my mind.

I like the idea of more potions; pills ... maybe.  At least the potions can rot.  Still, with the previous, you're switching herbs for potions now.  Status quo basically stays the same.

For the SvSpell, I'd take it one further.  Get rid of it entirely.  Keep SvS for skills and spells like warcry and bless, sure.  To me, on items it's lazy building.  It can easily get away from you as well.  Take the Boots of Absorption for example.

Affects savingspell by -5.

Affects savingmaled by -4.

Affects savingmental by -3.

Decent saves in three different categories at first glance.  Then you realize it's:

Affects savingaff by -5.

Affects savingmaled by -9.

Affects savingmental by -8.

Affects savingbreath by -5.

Considerably better when it registers and there's little need for choice.  Why get that item that has -3 to two saves when you can get a different item with -3 SvS and get all four?  Bonus if it then has more saves categories on it or hit/dam.

Cure critical doesn't need to change.

Cure light gives 1d8+level/3 hp.  At 50, that's 17-24 (avg 20).

Cure serious gives 2d8+level/2 hp for 27-41 (avg 34).

Cure critical gives 3d8+level-6 hp for 47-68 hp (avg 57).

---A special note here is that nymph hearts (and red and white staves) are cast at L30, so: 27-48 (avg 37).  In range with a L50 cure serious and your suggestion for no more than 40-45hp.

Heal cures 100 hp.

Signature spells:

I'd argue that spells like air shield and barrier are bigger than flesh armor, but semantics.  I lean this way, too, though it depends on the skill.  Fly is able to be cast by only healers, but we've got potions and consumables that grant it as well as items that give a permanent effect.  Frenzy is a single class spell, too.  Haste and slow and so on.  If you're using the argument because a "limited number of classes" get it, then nearly all spells fall under that.  Two get fireball.  Three get call lightning or equivalent.  Lightning bolt is on two or three as well.  And so on.

Glimmering staves don't need to be easier to get.  A few classes can get them quite early and others have almost no problems getting them at all.  The Wight isn't meant to be easy for everyone.  The deaths don't count either, if you were wondering.  If you have trouble, ask someone to get it for you.  Or stick with herbs/vials/etc.

Other options include:

The rune of salvation.  50 charges of L50 sanctuary.  Staff.  Common.  Isle of Souls.

The white radiance.  6 charges of L50 sanctuary.  Usable, lockbox item.  Common.

Tainted ankh.  8 charges @ L40, wand.  Common.  Tainted Valley.

Glowing orb.  5 @ L40, staff.  Rare.  Dark Observatory.

Dark Black Leaves.  Single use, L40. "Healer Island," Dead Sea.

Which brings me to mals and spell damage reductions.  I'm not a fan of this particular proposal at all.

Casters are already few and far between as people don't feel that their damage scales well in the current climate for various reasons.  Not to mention the gripes about being able to land [mal] spells at all.  Reducing spell damage by 10% and mal duration by 50% is just another kick in the teeth for mages.

17 minutes ago, Magick said:

Just a couple things that crossed my mind.

I like the idea of more potions; pills ... maybe.  At least the potions can rot.  Still, with the previous, you're switching herbs for potions now.  Status quo basically stays the same.

The idea here is that melees don't have access to a ton of buffs. They'd get the basics of fly, detct invis/magic, sanc. No more fully spelling themselves up like a caster can. It also give casters a boost because they can use wands/staves/scrolls.

17 minutes ago, Magick said:

For the SvSpell, I'd take it one further.  Get rid of it entirely.  Keep SvS for skills and spells like warcry and bless, sure.  To me, on items it's lazy building.  It can easily get away from you as well.  Take the Boots of Absorption for example.

Affects savingspell by -5.

Affects savingmaled by -4.

Affects savingmental by -3.

Decent saves in three different categories at first glance.  Then you realize it's:

Affects savingaff by -5.

Affects savingmaled by -9.

Affects savingmental by -8.

Affects savingbreath by -5.

Considerably better when it registers and there's little need for choice.  Why get that item that has -3 to two saves when you can get a different item with -3 SvS and get all four?  Bonus if it then has more saves categories on it or hit/dam.

This is exactly my thought process. Save vs spell is really good.

17 minutes ago, Magick said:

Cure critical doesn't need to change.

Cure light gives 1d8+level/3 hp.  At 50, that's 17-24 (avg 20).

Cure serious gives 2d8+level/2 hp for 27-41 (avg 34).

Cure critical gives 3d8+level-6 hp for 47-68 hp (avg 57).

---A special note here is that nymph hearts (and red and white staves) are cast at L30, so: 27-48 (avg 37).  In range with a L50 cure serious and your suggestion for no more than 40-45hp.

Heal cures 100 hp.

With the lowering of total stats on items, and having to choose between hit/dam and saves, shamans and clerics are going to be much more difficult to kill. This makes them think more about their mana usage and being more defensive, as I think the classes were more intended to be. Lowering the heal amount makes them 'easier' to kill because they bounce back a little slower.

17 minutes ago, Magick said:

Signature spells:

I'd argue that spells like air shield and barrier are bigger than flesh armor, but semantics.  I lean this way, too, though it depends on the skill.  Fly is able to be cast by only healers, but we've got potions and consumables that grant it as well as items that give a permanent effect.  Frenzy is a single class spell, too.  Haste and slow and so on.  If you're using the argument because a "limited number of classes" get it, then nearly all spells fall under that.  Two get fireball.  Three get call lightning or equivalent.  Lightning bolt is on two or three as well.  And so on.

I guess I just hadn't thought about a lot of them being kinda unique. But most of my ideas were focused towards the ease of getting the buffs on classes that obviously can't normally cast them. It kinda dilutes the cool factor of a spell if everyone gets it. Specifically, I think fly is way too important to be lumped into that discussion. But things like stone skin, air shield, haste, and barrier(as you mentioned), are things that should be less frequently, or never, seen outside the classes that can cast them.

17 minutes ago, Magick said:

Glimmering staves don't need to be easier to get.  A few classes can get them quite early and others have almost no problems getting them at all.  The Wight isn't meant to be easy for everyone.  The deaths don't count either, if you were wondering.  If you have trouble, ask someone to get it for you.  Or stick with herbs/vials/etc.

Other options include:

The rune of salvation.  50 charges of L50 sanctuary.  Staff.  Common.  Isle of Souls.

The white radiance.  6 charges of L50 sanctuary.  Usable, lockbox item.  Common.

Tainted ankh.  8 charges @ L40, wand.  Common.  Tainted Valley.

Glowing orb.  5 @ L40, staff.  Rare.  Dark Observatory.

Dark Black Leaves.  Single use, L40. "Healer Island," Dead Sea.

I am aware of the items mentioned, but if smokeables are removed, the only one usable by anyone is the white radiance, and that's random chance. I think all classes at 50 should have a pretty easy time getting a good source of sanc. The game is largely balanced around it.

17 minutes ago, Magick said:

Which brings me to mals and spell damage reductions.  I'm not a fan of this particular proposal at all.

Casters are already few and far between as people don't feel that their damage scales well in the current climate for various reasons.  Not to mention the gripes about being able to land [mal] spells at all.  Reducing spell damage by 10% and mal duration by 50% is just another kick in the teeth for mages.

The changes I proposed are mostly tied together. The mal/spell damage changes should definitely not happen unless the other ones do. I just don't want to be seen as someone who just wants melee nerfed. 

Definitely appreciate the reply though. Not arguing here, more explaining myself more thoroughly.

I personally like the idea of saves being more specific unless its very high end gear. Gives mages the edge again when players aren't prepared for them. Would suggest a rework of willow palm/asylum gear in this manner.

Also I'm a big advocate of cutting down the duration of the seaweed considerably.

With Merchants its much easier to obtain consumables that were probably never meant to be had in such great number by melees. Therefore some of them that are specific to classes should probably be removed to make them unique again.

Insert usual rhetoric about wimpy here [ ...] Makes mages far too survivable imho.

Melees used to be challenging to play, always playing a balancing act to be ready at all times against as many opponents as possible. I feel these would all be good steps in the right direction.

We already did an overhaul to reduce sv vs spell. A lot of items have already been changed. (during the last half year or so)

3 hours ago, Anume said:

We already did an overhaul to reduce sv vs spell. A lot of items have already been changed. (during the last half year or so)

Unfortunately, there has been items and skills added to give melees a boost for the last 10 or so years.

I've been preaching for a diminishing returns vs saves past -30. similar to act diminish.  Best viable solution imo

I agree to a point. Simply adding diminishing returns still doesn’t force a saves vs hit/dam vs ac choice though.

I don't know why everyone is complaining about mals not landing. Affs are better anyways 😋

On a serious note, I think the diminishing returns on saves is a very viable option that would force that choice. If I know I am not getting anything if my SvAnything is above 30, why would I choose one item that grants a bunch of saves versus one that has better ac, or gives hp? Heck, let's just get rid of saves all together. Let the mages rule the world as intended!

The issue I see is that you can achieve the diminishing returns very quickly with some of the current gear. So you can itemize more heavily to other things more easily.

On 2/13/2019 at 2:21 AM, Seravin said:

I’m doing idea spaghetti, throwing it out there and seeing what sticks.

Well that explains the bad presentation, no explanation, randomness, uselessness and generally "changing stuff for the sake of change" of these "ideas".

The first two made me laugh especially hard though.

Suggests to remove herbs, because it's boring to collect them and provides access too many buffs.

Suggests to add more pills and potions (to counter the first suggestion) that are sold by a vendor and offer a wider variety of buffs.

On 2/13/2019 at 2:21 AM, Seravin said:

Remove smokeables from the game. This is most contentious, I’m sure. The number of buffs people can get, and the monotony of farming consumables sucks. 

 

To combat the above: add more potions and pills that give buffs. Give them weak, normal, and strong versions, available at 20/35/50. Vendors available 24 hours a day to sell them. Detect invis, detect magic, invis, fly are the biggest. 

Why suggest one thing, and then suggest another to combat the first thing you suggested? Why change anything at all in the first place?

I think part of the problem is the pervasiveness of rares and unique's, in that because we have a lower playerbase, it is so much easier for people to have all of the gear that facilitates higher power levels. I personally don't have an issue with higher power levels.

So an important question (in my mind) is, what is a reasonable success rate for spells, or specifically mals to land? If we can identify that rate then we can compare character builds with top gear sets and evaluate if the percentages match up and adjust appropriately. Magic resistant races would have value ranges slightly lower, while others such as Giants v. Mental should be higher.

On muds I have built for in the past we always had a point system.  Similar to Anume's custom RP item thread.  Items were given a fixed amount of points based on the item level.  Different stats cost points.  Then a QA builder would review your items and audit them for compliance before the new area went live.  

There were also stats that were exceptions for example. Adding hitroll would count against AC.  So you spent 5 points on ac. And 2 points on hit roll.  But hitroll being on the item penalizes ac by 10%.  But the ac still cost 5 points.  That way you couldn't stack defense and offense on the same items.   

The rules were applied to all areas, with some rare approved exceptions that usually revolved around the most difficult pieces to obtain.  Things like Kreyis, for example.

From the logs that have recently been posted for us to review it does not appear we have a problem with spell landing rate (in most of the cases). Bard landing rate is a bit too high right now and we will look at that.

To remove herbs and introdcue pills seems to have no real effect.

I do not think it is true that we have only upgraded melee for the last 10 years. We have put in a lot of mage eq just as well. Some items were simply too good overall.

Putting in diminishing returns for saves at a value of 30 will hurt anyone with a vuln unproportionally hard (as they already start with quite a bit of + saves compared to a no vuln race). Diminishing returns on hr dr already hurt giant races more now than other races (due to higher str). This change would unbalance giants and ogres most (synergy with hr dr diminishing returns), but also anything else with a vuln.

As to the point system, something similar has been discussed and may be used in the future.

As to perceived imbalance. Please post logs. Since the eq overhauls of high sv spell gear, the ac update and the better mage parry I do not think there is an imbalance for mages in general right now. Synergies are more a problem we still need to look at.

1 hour ago, Anume said:

As to the point system, something similar has been discussed and may be used in the future. 

Allow me to suggest the use of it for common and rare items, leaving unique outside. That way ppl can still do stuff and them being uniques, are a lot more easy to keep track of numbers.

Object 'dragon egg shell' is type pill, material egg shell.
Extra flags: glow.
Weight is 1, value is 200, level is 15.
Level 40 spells of: 'sanctuary'
Throne in Descobru house.

Object 'gleaming white vial' is type potion, material glass.
Extra flags: none.
Weight is 0, value is 10000, level is 30.
Level 40 spells of: 'sanctuary'.
Blackwatch, Alchemy shop.

Object 'white pill' is type pill, material unknown.
Extra flags: none.
Weight is 0, value is 4000, level is 25.
Level 25 spells of: 'sanctuary' 'dysentery'.
Shadow Wraith, Citadel of Kaer Banor.

Object 'potion ancients' is type potion, material liquid.
Extra flags: glow hum dark nodrop burnproof.
Weight is 3, value is 10000, level is 50.
Level 50 spells of: 'sanctuary' 'reserved' 'reserved' 'reserved'.
Tired old innkeeper, Winter.

In my opinion Miruvhor Lathman shop vial to pill conversion system should improve the sanctuary potency from L15 to something higher like L30.

Also someone suggested giving herald, pick lock because of Lockboxes. I think it's a great idea as it promotes interaction with other players. And Heralds are all about interaction.

3 hours ago, Anume said:

From the logs that have recently been posted for us to review it does not appear we have a problem with spell landing rate (in most of the cases). Bard landing rate is a bit too high right now and we will look at that.

To remove herbs and introdcue pills seems to have no real effect.

The idea was to remove all the herbs and only give back the ‘necessary’ buffs. As in, only fly and detects. Not replace herbs with pill counterparts. 

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I do not think it is true that we have only upgraded melee for the last 10 years. We have put in a lot of mage eq just as well. Some items were simply too good overall.

I agree with you. It hasn’t been only melee. But melee have been given fired weapons-yes, anyone with scroll can use missile shield, but it’s an expensive, short duration solution. 

But warrior, ranger and zerk were all given paths, a direct bonus to them. 

And there has been a lot of mid-high end gear with hitroll and saves. Hit/dam scales melee classes. A mage has very few ways to boost their spell damage. They depend on defensive stats to survive long enough to do damage. When melee can get high hit/dam, and saves, they get damage and defense. There’s no more choice involved. 

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Putting in diminishing returns for saves at a value of 30 will hurt anyone with a vuln unproportionally hard (as they already start with quite a bit of + saves compared to a no vuln race). Diminishing returns on hr dr already hurt giant races more now than other races (due to higher str). This change would unbalance giants and ogres most (synergy with hr dr diminishing returns), but also anything else with a vuln.

My proposed lower duration of mals and lowered damage of all spells would help keep this more in line. Especially affl spells. I’m not 100% sure how spell damage is calculated, but if you lower the damage outright, it compounds with sanc. 

As to giants/ogres. Their naturally higher hit/dam lets them more easily itemize for saves. 

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As to the point system, something similar has been discussed and may be used in the future.

As to perceived imbalance. Please post logs. Since the eq overhauls of high sv spell gear, the ac update and the better mage parry I do not think there is an imbalance for mages in general right now. Synergies are more a problem we still need to look at.

Edit: when it comes to posting logs, this game doesn’t have a pbase that can support a proper sample size. There just simply isn’t enough people playing to give a real idea of if things are imbalanced.

what is the better mage parry?

There is no mage parry.

A vast simpilication of the buff system has been needed for at least 15 years. Gathering consumables complicates balance and is a very boring yet necessary time sink. Lacking or losing your source results in non-viable PK and thus logouts or character abandonment. This is a serious, little recognized issue.

In a class-based system, the  weight of importance should be much more on base class skills, with lower tiers of importance on class specializations, race, cabal, gear, buffs, then special gear/buffs (quests) following in that order.

When you try to balance in reverse up the tiers (using gear to balance races for instance) is when things get messy and quickly out of control.

A litany of gathered buffs should not be necessary for most competitive PK (melee or mages) and instead should be distinctly situational. The teleport pill is a good example of this.