I wonder how many people have been driven away by syndicate and the current bounty system.
The current system sucks, the lack of willingness to change it sucks.
Make syndicate evil only, make bounties minimum waaay higher, remove the ability for syndicate to have allies or let anyone buy out bounties.
Most problems solved.
Syndicates should be allowed to be neutral. Making them evil only I do not agree with.
So clearly Dale meant his actions aren't against the rules in the violation of letting OOC communication impact his decision making. Its not like his buddy is IMing him and saying, "Dude, I wanna kill X, bounty them!" and he's doing it. When we say OOC here at FL we usually mean OOC cheating.
However, it is true that his decision is out of character for his current char, perhaps, maybe. But that's also a kind of ridiculous argument. Because...you could twist anything that way. Oh, you say you joined the paladin guild because your parents were killed, but wasn't it really because you felt like playing a class with sanc and thought it would be fun? So OOC of you!
All IC development is driven by OOC decisions around what we want to play and what kind of game we want to build. You decide your RP in an OOC way and then make it IC. Dale can make his actions IC because the kind of char he wants to play, as long as its consistent, and that's perfectly fine.
I'm perfectly fine with bounties as they exist. I'm perfectly fine with some level 40 placing 20 of them to try and get awesome eq. I mean, one really hopes that char worships greed and isn't going gladiator/tribunal/knight/etc. If its a legit part of their RP that they're a greedy dark souled bastard willing to kill random people for a couple shiny objects, that's RP. The problem is when thast's not your RP, its not how you play your char, and it doesn't represent you, but you do it anyway.
/rant
I would disagree. It is evil to collect a bounty.
So to answer what I've read so far:
@f0xx You were in Nexus who has very rarely ever chosen anyone aside from the Syndicate to have an alliance with. The difference here is that that itself can be construed as RP. You're already well established in that specific community. It makes sense. You're a level 40 who was just rolled in the last few days? At this point I'm saying sorry, but you bountying someone knowing full well you get 3 items from a level 50, and doing so regardless of potential future enemies, you probably don't have a good enough reason to do so. You want to roll up someone hell bent on hating one specific race because you want to kill someone specifically who is that particular race? I've seen it done, that's just OOC to me. That may be seen by some as not having an imagination of other possibilities, but honestly we roll a character out of OOC knowledge already and some of us will put far more thought into a character than others. Just being evil though isn't good enough unless in your case where you had already established the character.
@Fool_Hardy In a few suggestions, yes it does take that option away. But it also doesn't stop you from bountying him when you're both at 50 either which would have a larger impact on someone than any others. Ogrin held a grudge against my character for quite a time IG for getting a couple quests before he could. It was maybe 4 real days though. Perfect example of RP, and if I did kill you for my wannabe, I would expect it. That's a direct RP interface for it. You bountying me because you know you can at level 40 safely outside of my PK range though while I'm at 50? That's OOC to me. Have you done it before? Most likely not. I actually had you in mind when I originally posted this, which was why I also added in the alternate of not getting anything from the people you bounty prior to 50 or even in general. I feel if you know that you're not going to get items from someone, you're less likely to bounty them at any point for many people. You want their head, bounty them. But don't bounty them just to gain something out of it outside of that. Does that make a little more sense at least?
@Dale & @Manual Labour Please try to refrain from pounding each others assholes from view of the public? I understand that what Dale had said definitely seemed OOC in original context, but sometimes we don't always correctly say what we mean the first time too. Context is something many people do not have a great grasp on, so tearing apart each others posts and getting offended by it just seems counter productive.
@myrek It's OOC in the simple fact that you know for a fact that you'll be getting something out of their death. How does your character know that they'll get the items outside of knowing that other characters have gotten them? It's one thing to bounty someone for a purpose. IE: Royal, and they're doing a shit job of it. Tribunal and they wanted you because you didn't sheath. You're a Nexus and you know that bountying their leader (despite it probably never being capitalized upon) will possibly cripple those beneath them. Examples of OOC factors though are you're fresh in the 40's never had any interaction with the person, but you know you can gain EQ by bountying a 50 when you're safe from their own PK. This idea is heavily geared towards non-50's who benefit from being able to not be harmed by those who are not in their PK range. This idea has literally nothing to do with people at 50 though.
So here's an example for everyone who says that most often you get a glimmering staff when you bounty someone. A while back I had bountied someone while I was at level 41 and they were 50 (this was before I actually began thinking about this and how fucked it is overall after doing so). I didn't get a glimmering staff. I got a couple rings that are difficult to get at level 50, so how is that fair in terms of EQ when one of the rules of EQ giving is quite literally to not give people EQ that is beyond their own means? I also got a really nice belt that you can attain solo at 50, but it takes a bit of time in doing so. The reason for the request in change isn't because it happened to me at all. It is more for the fact that it literally buffers people into a role of protection that can and will be abused in the future if things aren't changed. Prior to 50, no items. After 50, okay. That makes it so you can get those things back from the individual who bounties you at least making it fair. How is it fair for a level 40-44 though to gain those items from you without you ever getting a chance to even defend yourself from them, or attack them to gain it back? Syndicate has plenty of things to do though @Dale when there are no bounties depending on your class. You can farm for your consumables, preserve herbs to sell to others (you don't need to be a merchant to make gold by selling things), farm for gold to purchase your consumables assuming you're not already an Outlaw making it more difficult to do so sometimes, or even farm CP through guild quests which you can't do as a non-cabaled character.
Add my name to the list of people who agree the bounty system is kinda dumb.
2 hours ago, Zhurong said:
Syndicates should be allowed to be neutral. Making them evil only I do not agree with.
Agreed. Murder for profit is only an evil act when it hasn't been certified by the Aabahran Association of Assassins for Hire. Once certified, it's no longer evil. Somehow.
I'm never going to understand the logic behind neutral Syndis, am I? Kill for profit when not in a cabal? Evil act. Kill for profit when in a cabal? Neutral fulfilling cabal duties... of a cabal that they willingly joined knowing that it would require them to murder for profit. I fail to see how "it's a cabal duty" negates the ethics of the act, particularly when one willingly joins the cabal knowing perfectly well what it's about. edit: Hell, it's more than just knowing what you're getting into, it's enthusiastically embracing the murderer for hire job. You don't join a cabal because you need a job to support the kids, you join a cabal because you believe in what that organization stands for. Syndi stands for murder for hire, and to join you have to fully embrace that.
I placed a bounty once.
Once. In twenty years here.
My opinion is this, and I do not apologize for your not agreeing with me.
The bounty system created an avenue to strike at people out of PK range for IN CHARACTER reasons.
Level 30 talking crap to your pinn? Or vice versa? Bounty them. (happens often)
Level 50 repeatedly telling you he will confiscate your bracelet of summoning as soon as your in his range, Bounty that idiot. (happens daily)
But your suggestion stops this type of interaction, it promotes an atmosphere where immortals have to play councilor over interactions between characters, instead of having a system to deal with out of range IN CHARACTER issues.
I am not trying to save a system for my personal use, I am trying not to let a preconceived work around cause a change that creates more work for an already under appreciated staff.
Some people may think, well then, we need a bigger staff. This is a bad avenue to take. Every time someone ascends, we lose a regular player for at least some of their usual playtime.
@Pali So the special forces sent in to take out Osama Bin Laden... Evil?
This is not a jab at you Pali, I generally enjoy your thoughts as they often prove counter to my own and may shed light from an angle I missed.
30 minutes ago, Fool_Hardy said:
So the special forces sent in to take out Osama Bin Laden... Evil?
Strictly speaking, the purpose of the military is not to kill for their pay - the purpose of the military is to protect their country for pay, and while protecting the country may require them to kill it is not the beginning and end of the job description.
To not get bogged down in IRL ethics, where an Avatar would be one of the worst human beings living, my issue is more that we have a massive contradiction at play in-game. The general rule behind neutrals PKing is that you have to have a reason beyond selfish motives, an ideological position for general killing or a personal reason for individual killing. Watchers can slaughter cityfolk at will because Watchers have an ideological reason to do so: they believe that they are protecting Nature from destruction. Warmasters and Savants can slaughter each other because each believes that the other is effectively spreading weakness and degeneracy of a sort throughout the world and must be stopped. Tribunes can execute criminals because they are upholding the order of the land. Each of these cabals has goals that the killing is intended to help reach, goals that are intended to benefit the world in general rather than simply the individual who is doing the killing. But Syndicate? They kill because they are paid to. They do not choose targets because of an ideology, their targets are chosen for them by others at random, and they are killed because the Syndi profits from killing them.
27 minutes ago, Fool_Hardy said:
I placed a bounty once.
Once. In twenty years here.
My opinion is this, and I do not apologize for your not agreeing with me.
The bounty system created an avenue to strike at people out of PK range for IN CHARACTER reasons.
Level 30 talking crap to your pinn? Or vice versa? Bounty them. (happens often)
Level 50 repeatedly telling you he will confiscate your bracelet of summoning as soon as your in his range, Bounty that idiot. (happens daily)
To my knowledge you can't bounty a person at 50 as a level 30. And having never had the need to bounty a level 30 character while at 50 I can't say that I know if you can or not in those instances. I've used the bounty system plenty of times for legitimate purposes though, and with a 50 telling you he'll confiscate an item once you're in range sounds like it's a Tribunal. They're not rare items and most of the time you can find someone willing to let you borrow theirs for the purpose of it being used. I've had evils offer a lot and I've only seen a Good character offer it once. What is the purpose of talking crap to a 50 anyways? To me I don't care if it is your characters RP or not to bash on others, but that honestly makes you an instant and permanent ignore and I've used that once in 10 years. Why bounty a person for it? Unless they actively continue to try and continue harassing my character all it does is invoke rage within myself in the real world which means I'm quitting out because I'm going to send pictures of a laptop that has been torn apart in absolute rage. Talk shit to me while in my PK range? If you can kill me, I'm not going to attempt wasting my time on you trying to invoke that rage. I simply avoid them and play it how I normally would. Maybe it's just me, but I find few characters who tend to be this outspoken to other characters without a good reason. You're helping their enemy? You are their enemy? Understandable. Outside of that? Quiet mode, I'd rather not have to deal with retardation on any level like that and no one should be forced to put up with it. How many characters actually make it long term anyways? Few last more than maybe 3 months, and those who do usually make it to a year or more. A majority last less than a month.
The suggestive changes don't create more work though. It would be hard coded. You want their head? You get their head. That's it. A hard coded aspect into the game that creates no need to monitor it at all. You don't get anything as far as EQ though because why do you get that right when you didn't kill them? The Syndicate took that risk. It should only be their gain regardless of why you bountied someone. You want their things? Kill them yourself and don't be a bitch about it. You want that one item that is never in, but you're a good aligned and they're good aligned? If you want to bounty it, go for it, but say hello to the risk of outcast after that indefinitely. All suggestions pretty much offer only a coding aspect of dedication to it and nothing more. It means outside of adding the code needed for it, there's no extra work for the Imms after that, especially nothing more extra for those who don't currently code or know how to. So in this respect it nullifies that worry of a ton of added work. A page of code maybe? Slightly inconvenient to actually enforce an already added rule of rares that this is currently the only loophole for outside of the already monitored route of multi'ing somehow. You personally may do it only for an RP reason and that's going to be a good reason. Removing the bonus of gaining armor through bounties though means that the purpose to put a bounty on someone is there for the actual intended use, and not our own personal RL greed of wanting the armor that is a perk to our characters. Get rid of EQ gain, gains you more RP opportunities rather than less despite what many may believe.
33 minutes ago, Pali said:
But Syndicate? They kill because they are paid to. They do not choose targets because of an ideology, their targets are chosen for them by others at random, and they are killed because the Syndi profits from killing them.
Now wait a moment. That is a little bit OOC in its nature of thinking.
You assume the would be syndicate, oh lets call him a cartel member, knows what the Syndicate does. But here we have merchants, oh lets call them bookies, I mean book keepers, that work for this under cover organization. As the cartel member sees these wealthy and prominent individuals in his clan doing well for themselves, nicely dressed, fearless, and they treat him like family. Now, when he learns the truth, he is already guilty as an accomplice. He could quit, but they will kill him. What is left the Witness Relocation Program, apply for a new name and pray they never find you? Or, kill someone else so you do not have to die, even if the rest of the world thinks you did it because your evil? (Help Death) It is to be avoided.
Just offering a perspective. There is an RP reason for a Neutral Syndicate. If you are willing to consider that the character is a character and not a player.
I just think of TV shows/movies like the Sopranos/Godfather/Sons of Anarchy. Sure, by most peoples' definition, they're evil, but there exists enough moral ambiguity and internal reasoning for some members to absolutely fall within the neutral spectrum of the alignment scale. I have no issues at all with neutral Syndicate.
The problem IMHO is that there is often no discernible difference in rp between an evil and neutral syndi.
A neutral syndi should have some kind of rp around how he does what he does and stays a decent person. Does he have strong reasons to soon syndi? Is there a non-evil drive? If he is just greedy and will kill for gold i agree it's evil.
A neutral syndi, IMHO, should require excellent rp to avoid outcast. Subpar or mediocre rp need not apply.
37 minutes ago, Aidon said:
The problem IMHO is that there is often no discernible difference in rp between an evil and neutral syndi.
Exactly.
@Fool_Hardy The problem with the scenario you pose is that Syndicate is a well-known cabal - it is not a shadow organization nobody knows the details about. Instead it openly advertises its services through notes to the entire world, and quite literally part of the application process is murdering someone to collect on their bounty.
My issue is not that it is impossible for a neutral to RP themselves into Syndicate - hell, I had one of the few good Hunters way back in 1.0 (edit: though it may be worth noting that I got kicked out for holding true to my alignment). My problem is that Syndicate as a cabal is effectively an evil organization, and nobody actually joins it not knowing what it is about. Hell, look at your own argument: you aren't arguing that what a Syndi does isn't evil. You're arguing that someone may be effectively trapped in the cabal doing evil things against their will, and while that may be a brilliant RP to play out, I've never seen a Syndi run with that RP - have you? edit: And does that make the cabal less evil, having members that may be trapped doing horrible things against their own conscience, or MORE evil for forcing them to commit such misdeeds?
Seems like this debate breaks down into a few ideas.
Should gear be available to un-pinned characters?
Should characters be able to affect characters via bounty that they couldn't affect via PK?
Is it OOC to know you're getting gear from a Syndi kill?
The answer to #1 is that FL doesn't have a level based equipment system. To impose it here and there is inconsistent and very frustrating to people who picked FL because of this. If gear is such a hot topic, that should be addressed, not the bounty system.
The answer #2 is that acting with that kind of impunity is pretty hinky. But then again, who stays below 50 for long?
#3. I beat up the help files trying to find a clear answer. There isn't one. But it's an in-game system so it seems like it is NOT OOC to expect to get gear. But that's an opinion.
@Lexi your reply cleared up my misunderstanding of your comment. But the whole "After I am killed, I can talk to my assailant" thing is weird to me. That seems like bad RP. Who would chit-chat with their murderer?
People complaining about the silent kill doesn't make any sense to me. FL has always had Conclave/Syndicate. If you hated them, why did you stay in the first place? (That's a general you, not aimed at you Lexi)
@Tantangel I don't think it's OOC. As for it benefiting un-pinned characters.... so what? Who stays <50 for long?
Re Myrek:
I don't know if there's a different culture here, but in pretty much every MUD I've played, player combat and conflict was one of the things that drove roleplay. It was how rivalries were established and also a way to galvanize certain groups behind a cause, and so on and so forth. I'm not saying you're supposed to sit down over a cup of tea and discuss the weather and the latest football game or whatever, but the game would be really boring without any interaction from PK at all. It's essentially the silent kills that leaves you dead with a bunch of equipment lost.
I don't get why you think having interaction with the people you fight with would be bad roleplay.
@Lexi
Looks like you took your logic a step further than you explained. I think I understand your point of view better.
My position on this hasn't changed in a decade. Thera is a world at war. Armies are marching across it. Demons roam the once fair city of Val Miran. What more galvanization is needed? Rivalries are already established.
I truly do not understand wanting to talk with someone who tried to kill you. Someone beats your ass on the street. Do you want to talk to them?
Maybe this all paints a different picture for me because I'm ex-military. But being killed by your enemy without talking makes a ton of sense. You talk with your allies. You fight your enemies.
Talking doesn't necessarily mean friendly banter.
Conversation can include arguments, insults, threats, etc...
It is done to create more immersion and interaction aside form just PK.
Sometimes depending on your cabal you can also talk to your enemies and fight your friends.
I agree with you that we shouldn't be sitting around having tea parties with our assailants but like I said talking can mean much much more.
A simple example would be a good aligned character who wants to try and convert an evil. Even if they kill you or your allies you might still try and bring them to the light through words, even in between fights.
The opposite could also be true, as an evil you might torment the good you have killed repeatedly mocking their virtue and showing them the power of the uncaring dark side.
Either way it might not seem realistic, but in a game with multiple lives it would be boring if we never talked to our enemies.
23 minutes ago, Manual Labour said:
A simple example would be a good aligned character who wants to try and convert an evil.
That would be awesome, but you can't. The game doesn't allow it. Maybe that's the issue. Chit chat between enemies is fruitless.
Just now, myrek said:
That would be awesome, but you can't. The game doesn't allow it. Maybe that's the issue. Chit chat between enemies is fruitless.
That is debatable. As a player I know it is 99.9% unlikely. But my character does not know that.
Then take the 0.1% when if someone decides to go along with it, gets outcast and changes align. This can happen.
So even though from a player perspective it is fruitless, it still enriches the game because it is good RP. Certainly better than silence IMO.