4 hours ago, Fireman said:
Yeah that makes sense. Good points. How dare you make reasonable, rational points.. this is the internet!!
How dare you allow yourself to be swayed by them? This is the internet! :D
'Stay' Command
2 hours ago, Celerity said:
Ditto. Story of my life here.
I am still waiting for that rumour system.
As for the topic -- you get a pro, and you get a con. Such are most things in this game. Charmies are quite a big pro. Also there are charmies that are able to do that, and that's what makes them special. Implementing "stay" command will de-value those charmies.
Ofcourse @f0xx would prefer everyone does everything the long and hard way, im surprised he hasnt fought to get the directions changed back to full words. Why type W E S N U D when we should be spelling the directions out fully for every step, then while we are at it only teach vets how to alias ;)
Im not sure if @f0xx knows this but basic class charmies arent a pro, they are a balancing feature that without them the class wouldnt amount to anything. For a couple examples, show me a dominant necromancer that doesnt use zombies, show me a dominant ranger that doesnt beastcall, show me a dominant dark knight that never charms.
Bottom line for the discussion is that if people are doing it(i.e hiding them in rooms and quaffing potions, OR, starting battles and fleeing to leave them behind) then its a game mechanic that the players are creating for themselves because the MUD doesnt have it when it obviously needs it. Dont worry, nobody is gonna 'stay' their charmies and then go on a killing spree, but do expect it to open up some battle tactics and make traveling with large groups easier ;)
UC
Or, and hear me out on this, we create a new mechanic. A new room. One that you can put your charmies in. A stable, perhaps. For a fee, of course.
Enter the stable and pay the stablemaster 1000 gold per pet you'd like to stable. They'll keep them there, safe, until you return. Kind of like a locker for pets.
I don't know. Just shooting some ideas there. And I'm tired and going to bed now.
58 minutes ago, f0xx said:
As for the topic -- you get a pro, and you get a con. Such are most things in this game. Charmies are quite a big pro. Also there are charmies that are able to do that, and that's what makes them special. Implementing "stay" command will de-value those charmies.
Does it devalue them that much more than being able to walk through a door to leave charmies behind does? The other instances I know of bring more to the table than your charmy just sitting somewhere - entomb protects them from being destroyed while you're gone, and the Knight charmy has its own benefits when ordered to stay put (have no idea how Blood Guards work if they have a similar command). A stay command makes leaving them somewhere easier than pass door does, no denying, but only to a very small degree - it's the same result with fewer hoops to jump through, and those hoops aren't meaningful ones worth preserving IMO.
33 minutes ago, Unknown Criminal said:
Ofcourse @f0xx would prefer everyone does everything the long and hard way, im surprised he hasnt fought to get the directions changed back to full words. Why type W E S N U D when we should be spelling the directions out fully for every step, then while we are at it only teach vets how to alias ;)
I never knew directions were like that. I guess you are more vet than me :P
It wouldn't matter either way, because creating an ingame alias is so simple. What bothers me is people who REFUSE to do simple things, but instead want the game CHANGED for them. How do you people even survive in real life?
You say pets are a balancing matter. You are right. But so is not having a stay command. Imagine being a necro/ranger. You engage a BLM and see he is in deathweaver. You immediately "stay" your pets, and now he is fucked. He adapts though, and switches stances. You then retrieve your pets, and now he is fucked again. A "stay" command would make the classes with pets much more versatile. So this would not be just a "quality of life" change, but a direct PK bonus.
7 minutes ago, Pali said:
The other instances I know of bring more to the table than your charmy just sitting somewhere - entomb protects them from being destroyed while you're gone
Entomb is a relic and should be gone too, IMO. Zombies used to be much harder to obtain, so they needed a way to protect them. Now they are not.
So the backbone of your rebuttal is that a blademaster in death weaver would be utterly f*cked (an over exaggeration if you ask me) if people could stay their pet apposed to them pass dooring and leaving them... Compared to that logic, how is it that 'you' are able to survive in real life, lol ;)
19 minutes ago, f0xx said:
I never knew directions were like that. I guess you are more vet than me :P
It wouldn't matter either way, because creating an ingame alias is so simple. What bothers me is people who REFUSE to do simple things, but instead want the game CHANGED for them. How do you people even survive in real life?
You say pets are a balancing matter. You are right. But so is not having a stay command. Imagine being a necro/ranger. You engage a BLM and see he is in deathweaver. You immediately "stay" your pets, and now he is fucked. He adapts though, and switches stances. You then retrieve your pets, and now he is fucked again. A "stay" command would make the classes with pets much more versatile. So this would not be just a "quality of life" change, but a direct PK bonus.
Entomb is a relic and should be gone too, IMO. Zombies used to be much harder to obtain, so they needed a way to protect them. Now they are not.
It's a minor PK bonus at best, since already the necro can notice the deathweaving and leave his pets elsewhere via pass door, and it can be mitigated via my proposal of adding lag to the stay command (and stay could require a targeted command to the charmy rather than be a general one, so leaving your army somewhere will commit you to multiple rounds of lag) - if the necro wants to leave his charmies somewhere, he's going to have to get enough room between him and his enemy to do it safely, and if he's got that breathing room he can pass door and leave them somewhere just as easily, leaving no balance issues that I can see.
So if it's just a minor thing as PK is concerned, why bother? I'd say the increased interaction with pets alone would be worth it - I'd enjoy being able to RP commanding a zombie or mammoth to stay somewhere, or set them up to "guard my lair" or somesuch. The quality of life benefit for eq trips or when engaging mobs that swing and will wreck your pets is there as well.
As for entomb, my last necro used it plenty - your creations still need strength damned to make them worth much, and you don't always have a soul to burn for that. Any time I went on an eq trip that put them in serious risk I'd leave them entombed somewhere so they weren't in danger of being found.
Edited
2 minutes ago, Unknown Criminal said:
So the backbone of your rebuttal is that a blademaster in death weaver would be utterly f*cked (an over exaggeration if you ask me)
I don't ask you. You are biased, and you are bad at PK, which basically makes all assumptions bad, since you not only fail to understand basic PK mechanics, but you also flat out refuse to use them.
Secondly, That's a nice twist to my words.
The backbone of my rebutal is that:
-
It's a quality of life change that classes with pets do not need
-
Except it being a quality of life change, it is also a PK advantage, that classes with pets do not need.
I also find it funny how people come up with such suggestions, that would benefit a lot their current characters.
1 minute ago, Pali said:
So if it's just a minor thing as PK is concerned, why bother?
Careful there, that argument is a double edged sword - if it's so easy to pass a door in order to leave your pets behind, then why ask for such a change?
Just now, f0xx said:
Careful there, that argument is a double edged sword - if it's so easy to pass a door in order to leave your pets behind, then why ask for such a change?
You will find the answer to that question in the sentences immediately following the one you quoted.
Yes, it's a minor change. Minor changes are not made good or bad ideas simply because of their smallness, and enough of them can add up to a major difference.
Oh @f0xx, I'm not bad at PK, lol. If you ever fought me you might notice one golden aspect of all my battles, I don't chase. I have zero urge to assert dominance when I have my opponent on the ropes, however, if someone throws them self into me I'll take the kill. I like how you changed the subject from a stay command to your opinion on my PK skills though, you derail the subject because I have to defend myself in the hopes of getting it locked so that my suggestion fades away ;)
Ofcourse people post ideas and suggestions when they roll new characters, how else do you expect to tweak and grow stale classes? If the same idea or suggestion comes up multiple times from multiple people then it's probably something that should be added 'especially' if they are already loopholing the system to do it anyways.
7 hours ago, Pali said:
it doesn't affect needing to learn that strategy - it just makes it a slightly easier one to use.
Exactly.
Such ad hominem attacks. Much sad.
8 hours ago, f0xx said:
You engage a BLM and see he is in deathweaver. You immediately "stay" your pets, and now he is fucked. He adapts though, and switches stances. You then retrieve your pets, and now he is [screwed] again. A "stay" command would make the classes with pets much more versatile. So this would not be just a "quality of life" change, but a direct PK bonus.
You would certainly be able to do the flee/murder pretty much anywhere without the chance of your pets scattering, that would go against any class though, not just the blademasters. If you pick your locations right, it amounts to the same thing, currently. Instead of "oh, he's running here and he can do this now," it'll be "is he doing this here, now?"
Will it will make the pet classes more viable? Yes. That's certainly a down side to this. The question is how much and are there any ways to balance this if it were to be implemented? You'd not be able to perform this command in battle. Or while blind. And the potential for lag as Pali suggested. Limit it to just pets, not charmies. Is this enough? Maybe.
This is why we need both sides of the argument.
And thinking about things, I believe we're treating this like sentinel, *one *of the Knight's commands. What if it was like the other Knight command of similar nature? Now we're exactly like passing doors, only without the doors. Now granted, I don't recall if coward would allow the pet to flee while the owner was in the room still, but I believe the rest of this behavior would be considerably more acceptable.
Edited
47 minutes ago, Magick said:
If you pick your locations right, it amounts to the same thing, currently. Instead of "oh, he's running here and he can do this now," it'll be "is he doing this here, now?"
You realise the same argument can be applied to dirt?
Like, why can't I dirt on water? I can run on normal terrain and dirt anyway. It's so easy, right. Why don't we allow people to dirt kick on water too?
7 hours ago, Dale said:
15 hours ago, Pali said:
it doesn't affect needing to learn that strategy - it just makes it a slightly easier one to use.
Exactly.
Being able to dirt on water makes it slightly easier too, right?
8 hours ago, Unknown Criminal said:
Oh @f0xx, I'm not bad at PK, lol.
Always funny when someone compliments himself in public :P
53 minutes ago, Magick said:
Such ad hominem attacks. Much sad.
Why is everyone so easily offended nowadays? And how is that an attack?
If you are fat, and give advise to others on how to lose weight, without having a good record to backup what you're saying, and someone calls you a crook, is that an ad hominem attack too?
If your daughter is undergoing an operation, would you go in the room and try to give advise to the surgeon on how to do his job? And even if you decide to, would others let you do it? Are they ad hominem attacking you too?
It's the same here. We have people who suggest new stuff, that would make the life of their characters much easier and will give them a PK edge over some classes, and everyone is fine with that. Do rangers really need anything more? Because they are the ones who will benefit most from this change, as necros already have means to do that.
28 minutes ago, f0xx said:
Being able to dirt on water makes it slightly easier too, right?
Being over water is the direct intended counter to dirt kick. Is requiring a door and pass door the direct, intended counter for pet users to deathweaver, or is that counter simply "don't bring your pets to fight a blademaster" and pass door is the easiest way to accomplish that without losing them (when others already exist - I can leave my pets where I please simply by recalling too).
I notice that you have not addressed my points regarding the RP benefits of such a command, nor my suggestion that your PK concerns be allayed via giving the command lag.
RP should not be concerned where balance is.
Lag and a nice timer could work though.
3 minutes ago, f0xx said:
Lag and a nice timer could work though.
Problem solved then. Now since the balance concerns are handled, the RP and quality of life benefits seem sufficient reason to make the change to me.
And besides, @f0xx, it isn't just the OP's PK skill or immediate circumstances, but everyone who signed off on the idea. Collectively, none of us have the requisite skill standing to make the suggestion? All of us are biased towards our current charmie classes?
3 hours ago, f0xx said:
Why is everyone so easily offended nowadays? And how is that an attack?
If you are fat, and give advise to others on how to lose weight, without having a good record to backup what you're saying, and someone calls you a crook, is that an ad hominem attack too?
If your daughter is undergoing an operation, would you go in the room and try to give advise to the surgeon on how to do his job? And even if you decide to, would others let you do it? Are they ad hominem attacking you too?
It's the same here. We have people who suggest new stuff, that would make the life of their characters much easier and will give them a PK edge over some classes, and everyone is fine with that. Do rangers really need anything more? Because they are the ones who will benefit most from this change, as necros already have means to do that.
Love how a general statement makes one defensive, though it was partially directed at you.
But as you asked.
Calling someone a crook rather than taking a look at what they present is indeed an ad hominem attack. They could be giving empirical evidence to tell you, in your example, how to lose weight and for whatever reason, not be taking the advice themselves. An example would be "you could have a diet of only Doritos, Oreos and chocolate and lose weight as calorie count is more important than nutritional value." Doesn't matter that they weigh 400 lbs because they like to eat three square cakes every day.
An attack on the person rather than the argument is ad hominem. Such examples include:
"How do you people even survive in real life?"
"Ofcourse f0xx would prefer everyone does everything the long and hard way"
Doesn't matter if people make suggestions to help out their current characters. How many bugs have you found that were a detriment to your class that when removed would benefit you? That's actually the base point of bug hunting, albeit taking in the larger picture into account, too. Sure, it might be more correlation than causation in why you reported it, but the end result is still the same. So your second "example" isn't ad hominem so much as it would be advice that can be ignored, used or refuted by arguing the advice itself, not the reasons behind it. The "would others let you do it" is an exercise in repressing ideas (or not) because of their source or your beliefs.
So yes. Suggestions are fine, be it for selfish reasons or not. If this helps the ranger class most, big deal. You could be rolling a ranger yourself, next. Who knows? But not looking at both sides of the suggestion and not taking balance into account would be a mistake if it were to be implemented. You're certainly concerned about the latter, so kudos to you for that. To complain about the source or the reason for the suggestion is simply caustic.
But now I'm sounding (and being) argumentative and bringing nothing further to the table. So I'll reproach myself and go back to my corner now.
Edited
I don't really see this as a PK buff. It is a protect and manage your pets buff, with the slightest of pk application.
Nobody is scared of a necro with no pets or a ranger with no pets. Not using them is not OP in any way.