Morning all (or i guess whatever time of day it is for you.)
There has been some discussion on the role of neutrals recently. I think it is an area that needs looking at further, but wanted to kick start by highlighting something that has bugged me since I came back.
Merchant is possibly the most "true neutral" sub cabal we have - it has fantastic opportunity for RP, along with being a very good route for new players to learn the game.
However Merchant is 'shackled' to Syndicate through mechanics and the "family" RP. Considering that Syndicate leans towards evil over good due to the nature of what they do - and that syndicate also engage in Cabal war through alliances etc - really takes away from what a merchant should be - it also removes the option to be a Good aligned Merchant - without any real RP justification.
Fortunately there is another solution - Heralds.
By moving the Merchant Sub Cabal to the Heralds we deal with all the problems presented - and also gain the following additional benefits:
Feeder clan of academy is recommended to newbies - so fits in with the newbie friendly aspect of merchants.
Heralds is normally a very high quality / intensity RP environment - which is also a fantastic way to introduce new players to the game.
Good Merchants are obviously opened up.
Removes the clash between Merchants and Tribunal - which makes no sense - but is enforced due to the syndicate connection.
Honestly I was literally just thinking this exact same transition a month ago. Albeit they're all about money and profit in similar capacity to Syndicate, it also allows for people to go that route for even more knowledge and they can get newbie channel as well. This would also mean they'd get a boost in Cabal EQ since the Herald EQ is mostly sub par, and maybe even open up the possibility of people becoming more intrigued by Herald as well. With the ability of doing a note to all as well, they could benefit by gaining gold or CPs depending on what they choose and it doesn't necessarily mean the player who wants their note transcribed would need to pay it depending on how it's worked into it. But it's a pretty good idea IMO having them switched out.
Merchant is the front for the Cartel. It's not just "we buy and sell stuff." They are the money launderers, the fences, and the face of the Cartel's material goods sector. Moving them to Herald doesn't make sense. Furthermore, it would logically just move the vendetta from Tribunal to Syndicate - since let's be real, no upstanding mafia organization would allow anyone to cut into their profits or their turf.
It also just plain doesn't fit into what Herald is. They are historians, journalists, and chroniclers. None of that fits with Merchant. About as close as you get is Barnes and Nobles.
Merchant is the front for the Cartel. It's not just "we buy and sell stuff." They are the money launderers, the fences, and the face of the Cartel's material goods sector.
Not sure what you are describing, but it most certainly isn't the merchant I know.
Sounds to me like a lot of Merchants just aren't living up to their potential.
Don't be a dick.
Merchants were attached to Syndicate because no one really knew where to put them, let's be honest. People wanted a subcabal for Syndicate and it just so happened that Korthian was doing his thing at the time and it fit nicely. The way it is now, Merchant is a Syndicate pet cabal. They provide them with equipment free of charge and assist Syndicate's perma-ally Nexus with outfits/armors.
Personally, I feel as though Merchant needs to be its own separate entity. Be its OWN cabal and have to deal with its OWN politics. The outfits and benefits of being allied to a Merchant are AMAZING and shouldn't strictly be locked into the "basically" evil cabal of Syndicate and its permanent ally of Nexus.
This would then allow Erelei to experiment further with his crafting system as a subcabal of Merchant could be devoted to crafting armors, weapons, sockets, and much, much more. You'd have the Merchants we know that focus on bartering current items of FL and another set of Merchants that want to forge and sell their own - something that could be directly related to their allied politics at the time and would therefore create more of a desire to have them on your side. Best deal gets the best items.
It's not being a dick. I was noting that I can't roleplay Merchants for them... If they're not going to run with it more than being that "pet cabal" as you put it, that's their own problem. People make their own experience in RP. But a lack of exploration into the RP for Merchant is not grounds for moving them to Herald, which again, they don't fit in.
Sure, but its less of the player's fault and more of the design.
Are players allowed to expand on the RP of their cabal? Definitely. Are they encouraged to? Definitely. Nothing you are saying is "wrong", but it was suggested if Merchant is really best utilized globally under Syndicate control? Could this be done in game? Sure it could, but it would take far more effort than should be required, in my opinion.
Looking at the current status of a cabal, especially one like Merchant, isn't a bad thing. Condemning past and present Merchants for "not living up to their potential", is.
I agree with the OP that Merchant would be better off elsewhere.
Merchant is the front for the Cartel. It's not just "we buy and sell stuff." They are the money launderers, the fences, and the face of the Cartel's material goods sector. Moving them to Herald doesn't make sense.
It would need some kind of shift like when Justice became tribunal, I think open minds should be kept to avoid pigeonholing things.
44 minutes ago, Fireman said:
Don't be a dick.
Firstly, amazing.
Secondly on an unrelated note, how does something like that fly but I call someone hard work and get banned?
@f0xx@FiremanI think the issue here is that you're confusing "not living up to their potential" with "bad". I can't even remember a single character since I started playing, especially my own, that I could think on and say "Yup, they have explored every possible facet of RP, every angle and motivation in their character. Totally realized the whole of their RP potential." That's not saying any of these characters are bad, or not meeting standards, just that there is something more they could do if they so desired. Some other avenue that could be ventured. Personally, that line of thinking motivates me.
As to moving Merchant, or standing it up on its own, there really needs to be a solid, well-thought-out approach to it. Details. Reasoning.
You may see it as "Merchant was thrown into Syndicate because that's just where such-and-such was leading, or where so-and-so belonged when it was picked up." But that's not how I see it, personally. When I look at clans and cabals, I don't see clans as just step 1 to a cabal. I see them as organizations, because in the context of RP that is what they are. Despair is an evil cult that worships dark gods and sacrifices innocents to appease those powers. Hope are citizens who have taken it upon themselves to restore righteous rule to Aabahran. Militia are citizens that take up arms to defend the Empire. Cartel is the f'n MAFIA that lurks in the shadows and runs secret operations to garner wealth. Battle runs the Arena and participates in pit fighting. Hourglass scours the world for knowledge of the arcane arts. Academy teaches citizens and adventurers alike, seeking enlightenment and understanding through education.
In this regard, clans actually supercede the Cabal, in a sense. Cabals may be the elites of the clan, but they are simply very specialized in what the clan represents. Nexians still serve those same dark powers. Tribunal still takes up arms in the name of the Empire. Knight champions righteousness and seeks to unite Aabahran under a crown of virtue. Savant hoards arcane knowledge and uses it to change the world how they see fit. Warmaster seeks perfection in combat and a self-reliant approach, actually enforcing it beyond the arena. Herald becomes the eyes and ears of the Academy, and takes a more active approach to education. What differs with Syndicate is the scope that Cartel has. As Cartel is a mafia, they're expected to have money making ventures. That's kind of their purpose. They also have hitmen to enforce their will. If anything, Syndicate fits less with Cartel than Merchant, but that's a matter of my opinion.
So, if you feel that Merchant needs to move, what really needs to happen is finding a way to separate it from Cartel and Syndicate in a way that actually fits with the above.
That's not being closed-minded to change, it's requiring that more thought gets put into it than has been put forth.
That's not being closed-minded to change, it's requiring that more thought gets put into it than has been put forth.
He does have a point.
Maybe you weren't involved directly in what Korthian was doing @Fireman but he purposely sought out Syndicate for KBS to be integrated into.
All of his RP and the RP he had with people at the time accumulated into that outcome. The imms didnt just wake up and say, "Oh thats rather convenient, we'll just make a subcabal out of that.."
It could of easily been attached to any faction or even made part of the 'Royal' / 'Noble' treeline.
You're talking about an extreme angle of RP directly effecting the outcome of the clan through interactions and decisions Korthian made himself.This is exactly what Lloth is trying to point out I think. People can create anything they want, the options are endless. You just need to persevere to see them through and then anything is a possibility.
Maybe you weren't involved directly in what Korthian was doing @Fireman but he purposely sought out Syndicate for KBS to be integrated into.
All of his RP and the RP he had with people at the time accumulated into that outcome. The imms didnt just wake up and say, "Oh thats rather convenient, we'll just make a subcabal out of that.."
It could of easily been attached to any faction or even made part of the 'Royal' / 'Noble' treeline.
Now I'm reaching back into old memories here - but i'm pretty sure that Korthian said in his goodbye post for the character that he wanted Merchant to be its own Cabal - and that he was pretty much told that wasn't going to happen - so he accepted tying it to Syndicate.
I agree with Trick that Merchant should be its own cabal - Now its possible with an active coder this is something we can do - which apparently wasn't possible at the time - If it isn't possible I think Herald works much better than syndicate. You can split up how it affects RP however you like - but I think the biggest thing is that Merchant should sit in a neutral environment - that supports all aligns and all cabals equally - and right now that isn't really the case.
A good aligned merchant would pose problems. Why? Because it is ILLEGAL for a goodie to request an item from a mob and then give that item, free or otherwise, to any non-good character.
And besides, there is already a goodie tootie foundation that provides the righteous/similarly thinking folk with gear and whatnot. It's called Hope and hopefuls.
Merchant is part of the Maffffia. Periods. Loan office anyone? ("Our services feature a customized loan management and we’re open day and night. In case you refuse to pay back your loan, we will send someone with hands-on collection experiment to withdraw your funding and have your ass as interest." -Miruvhor Whisperer, Issue VII 15.4.2016).
Don't like how things work IG now? Roll a Herald and start competing with Merchant. Do your thing to have impact on the game.
That said, I'm against moving Merchants to Heralds, but I'm in for someone rolling a Herald and establishing a Loan office, where free money would be given to everyone. :) Paying back the loan would be voluntary.
@Lloth, you bring up really good points in many aspects and it had crossed my mind as well when I first thought of it and honestly that was the part that kind of made me think against it. I'll try and make decent points into what I think would be a better idea towards separation of the two entities.
Removing them from Syndicate would allow full range of alignment inside the Cabal instead of just Neutral/Evil which is beneficial in the sense that more angles could force the doors open in terms of RP.
Nothing prevents Merchant from allying with Syndicate assuming they're separated, which would still open up ways to having them put bounties on the heads of those who don't pay back their loans. At the same time though, Syndicate could easily head up that alone and Merchant wouldn't need to go down the path of a shadier side. Merchants buy/sell period. Loans I never thought really geared towards them at all, I always thought banks would be a good place to do loans and payments that should be Syndicate only.
Merchants being capable of creating their own armor/weapons would be absolutely amazing and it would open up new possibilities. Obviously limitations would be needed, but that part would be easy. Make it an Elder/Leader skill set to spellforge items with various things, and I think more people would want to go into it than before. Items can be stripped to help create or reinforce various wares of the Merchant, and they would have to buy various items from their own stores to help boost the stats of an item.
-Syndicate sub-Cabals could change to allow for a branch within that is specifically dedicated still towards providing services to others such as preserving herbs and the likes. That side could be the less lethal of the two giving such skills to characters as preserve as an inductee which could be given to both sides of the Family, but provide a service to help enhance herbs as well, or even create their own batches of varying herbs that aren't provided by nature itself. Due to their nature of going behind the scenes of the above the law of Merchants, this is why Tribunal would naturally dislike them in general. Merchants would then be considered less of a threat since their business is legitimate and doesn't break the laws. The drug dealers, although it's not technically against the law in a hard coded sense, Tribunal realizes that the threat of drugs can cause people to break the laws intentionally which is bad in their own eyes.
So why would Herald make sense to allow Merchants in? They already provide services in terms of sending notes and offering to expand the life of staves/wands which can benefit many, it's not a far leap to allow Merchants to expand on this market either. In the terms of RP it doesn't make it so that it's a huge leap for one of them to become corrupt and try to gain mass amounts of wealth, but in the process of that, it could allow someone to leave their halls to shift into the shadier side of things and amass far more wealth too.
I can see them not being separated simply because it's not broken really, but I always thought of Merchant as being more law abiding versus shady which since their inception, their entire existence has been very linear and been capitalized on by a specific type of character. Even going into their own Cabal, it would allow more opportunity for them to grow and it gives them a more legit business which I've always believed their name has implied. I'd try and go deeper into it, but I'm getting really tired and my mind is becoming more foggy the longer I try and stay awake to think about this. Your post specifically made me think more about the reasons behind those Cabals that I hadn't really thought of before, so in all I thought it was great regardless of an outcome.
I have perhaps come across as combative or hostile in my posts. This was not really intended.
What is intended is to encourage more substance and thoughtfulness in suggestions. There should be a reason, a way forward, and RP justification. I am of the opinion that a suggestion should not be "this is a change I would like to see. We should slap together a loose reasoning for it."
I am working very hard to make Aabahran into a world that is fluid and not a loose conglomerate of areas and ideas. Since not everything has been greenlighted, I haven't talked much about it publicly. I don't want to make promises to you guys on updates just to get veto'd and have to backtrack. What I can say is that we are rattling around some conceptual changes on the build team and working on hammering out some of the finer details. Each of these suggestions put forth on the immortal section has the structure I am trying to encourage here. So I am not asking any more from you guys than I am putting forward myself.
Sometimes I just forget that my pragmatic approach isn't always seen as such. So for that, I apologize.
I am not against the suggestion of separating syndicate and merchant. It just has to make sense. Putting merchant into herald doesn't, though.
But to use your own arguments, you are trying to justify Merchant's existence as part of Syndicate by describing them as something noone plays them like.
Syndicate is an "shady underground" crime organisation with specific focus on assassinations. Some of the most effective killers have been part of that.
Then you have Merchant, people who buy low and sell high. Not just that, but most of the time, the people who play Merchants are usually people who are not your most experienced player.
So you end up in a situation where noobs try to boss around some very "dangerous" characters.
This is just an example here, but something very similar has happened to me in the past, where my syndi DKN Nashmurlan (70-0 PK ratio) was being bad mouthed by some ogre ranger in merchant. I went and killed the ogre while he was growing herbs for Thulgan (do you remember this one, @Anume?) I got demoted for that, even though I payed 2 million gold to Thulgan to shut his mouth about his cancelled herb delivery.
Either Merchant needs to be completely redefined as a cabal and become something like the sub cabal which @Lloth describes and the RP standards need be raised, so they aren't a simple "we buy and sell stuff" cabal (hell they rarely even do that nowadays), or it needs to be separated, if it is to stay in its current state.