Paladin Specific Changes

Please comment on or post paladin specific ideas here.

1. the golliath be an actual mob that you ride and that kicks and bites in combat. Mounted combat would have a large change to auto-rescue your mount when your enemy targets the horse.

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A paladin may bless their weapon with holy fire. This is a special damage type that ignores all resists/vulns and does increased damage to all evils, but significantly decreased damage to neutrals. It adds the flaming flag and cause fear (no chance to neutrals, moderate chance in evils, high chance for evil supernaturals). It is applied in a similar way as blood vow (single weapon, lag, duration), and the weapon may only be used by the owner. Swords receive a special damage boost to this ability.

Paladins who use shields have a passive chance to completely avoid area spells and skills (this should be quite high as the paladin is sacrificing much offense against a caster here). They may also shield bash, albeit not as effectively as a warrior.

Paladins are innately immune to fear/hysteria.

Paladins gain +1 spellvl when wielding a staff.

Paladins gain the spear skill.

Adv. Mounted Combat allows paladins special bonuses while mounted.  Mounted paladins always attack first in the round. All weapons have +2 base damage. Adv. Mounted Combat only works outdoors.

Paladins gain the calm spell.

1. Perhaps another option for making mounted combat stronger would be to make it also a weak defense, where the paladin has a small chance (similar to, say, zerk bloodhaze) to ignore melee attacks as the paladin rides out of range or something along those lines but only while riding Goliath.

2. Make mounted combat work for regular mounts at 50% reduction OR allow for goliath to be summoned indoors OR increase goliath timer.

3. Paladins gain kick.

4. Paladins gain flail.

5. Paladins gain spear (1handed mounted charge)

Four paths:

Blessed warrior - A melee focused path that forgoe major blessings, think of the witchers of witcher 3 for example

Regular paladin - This can be the mounted variety with above mentioned tweaks

Armored cleric - A spell focused path that uses thing like holy fire. 

Healer - This is where I'd put the healer rework.

11 minutes ago, Wade said:

Four paths:

Blessed warrior - A melee focused path that forgoe major blessings, think of the witchers of witcher 3 for example

Regular paladin - This can be the mounted variety with above mentioned tweaks

Armored cleric - A spell focused path that uses thing like holy fire. 

Healer - This is where I'd put the healer rework.

Please flesh out the blessed warrior and armored cleric paths.

Which spells would they lose in exchange for what skills (for melee path)? Will this be sufficiently different from crusaders?

Armored cleric = more afflictive spells? Anything else, exactly?

Anyone, not just @Wade , can help flesh this stuff out.

The idea in my mind would be that the blessed warrior would need to collect reagents to cast their spells. Spark powder for a weakened flamestrike (minimal damage but more like an unreliable dirt kick with the smoke blind) 

Divine sight: an improved blind fighting like battle trance

For Armored cleric(name can be anything)  it would be a staff using afflictive communer focusing on fire/holy damage. 

To be fair, I'm an ideas guy not a details guy haha.

How about three paths - Lancer, Champion, Blessed Warrior, selectable at level 30.  All get holy fire spell that adds flaming bite to wielded weapon for 72 hours, which is also the spell cooldown period - but only normal flaming bite with it's normal ability to fire blind.  Goliath spell summons an actual pet of equal level that will never leave the paladin, can fight in combat, and the spell has a 100 hour cooldown - and naturally is an exception to heroism's enforced solo travels.  You'll want to take care of your Goliath.

Lancers are focused on mounted combat, specifically with Goliath.  Their Goliath is PC level +3, has innate protection from evil and haste, and can defend the paladin like a mammoth/mummy.  Mounted charge gains an extra round of lag on the target.  Because of the focused training on fighting with a mount, Lancers aren't as versatile as other paladins - heroism loses its hit/dam bonuses and holy word is lost completely.  Lancers will generally be better than other paladins at fighting mages.

A Blessed Warrior is dedicated to fighting for his god (more so than the average paladin, would be held to stricter RP roles).  The Blessed Warrior's holy fire is significantly improved - it now strikes the holy vuln as well as the fire vuln, with a baseline increase in damage vs evils, and can cause fear/hysteria to evils.  Likewise, the Blessed Warrior's holy word is improved so that it no longer cuts managain and will not fall except when its duration wears off - it can't be used up by wrathing low-health enemies.  Because of the Blessed Warrior's focus on his god, he isn't as versatile as other paladins in melee combat - he loses dual wield.  Blessed Warriors would generally be better than other paladins at fighting melee-focused opponents.

A Champion is an expert in fighting through incredible odds on her own.  She gains spear, axe, and flail, while heroism's duration and hit/dam boosts are doubled with the ac penalty removed.  Also, while under heroism, a Champion is resistant to fear, hysteria, sleep/ecstacy/hypnosis, and blackjack/strangle - not immune, but heroism would act like the balance skill does against bashes, giving a chance to resist these effects based upon proficiency.  However, a Champion's focus on survival has left her an inferior rider and spellcaster - she casts at -2 spell levels, and mounted charge no longer lags the target.  Champions would be very hard to take down and very hard to surprise, probably buffing them more against rogues than vs any other group, but they'd likewise have significantly more trouble landing a kill than current paladins do.

Help me out here, because I am a bit concerned.

If Goliath is an actual mob, a change that seems an upgrade, can the paladin not then be separated from Goliath with summon/push/isolation? Would that not be a very big downgrade?

I'd say Goliath should either be an exception to those abilities, or at least very highly resistant to them - push especially shouldn't work vs a Goliath-mounted paladin, but I could see isolate or summon being used against it.  Yes, it's a new weakness, but it's also new strengths.

We need more input if we are going to consider a paladin change. Please give positive/negative thoughts on the suggestions or help flesh them out further. We aren't there yet.

I haven't played a paladin in yeeeears. What is the biggest problem with the class that current players have found? 

Not offensive enough?

Not versatile enough?

Survivability isn't really an issue if I remember correctly. 

I think we need to highlight the main issues before trying to find a solution.

In my opinion, they mostly lack offense. I think their main flaw is and should continue to be poor flexibility - it fits lore and balance. They are all but worthless against rogues right now. Evils (esp undead/demons) simply don't fear paladins and I think they should. They should fear paladins more than a cleric even. A paladin should be a much harder counter to vampires than warriors and that isn't the case right now.

Is it that they don't have the damage or the ability to close a fight? Maybe give them something similar to trample for locking down opponents?

@tassinvegeta should chime in on paladins. I believe he played one of the most recent ones.

I believe Paladins are very strong but not quite top tier yet. People always say that in the right hands Paladins are beasts. When I hear this I believe they're referring to extremely fast chasers, i.e. extremely skilled players that would make any combo seem stronger due to there chasing skills. If these things are combined it helps to hide the Paladins major weakness. It's always been my belief that the offensive player will always have the advantage due to the nature of mistakes and luck that can be made that wouldn't favor the Paladin as much as the offensive player. I like the idea of making Paladins more attractive to the casual player that doesn't have the crazy chasing speed of the elite. Splitting up the class into paths would create further complications that we haven't solved on a class that's been here forever. Long story short my problems with Paladins are as follows;

1. Too weak vs vamps due to thrust

2. Too weak melee wise vs mages especially invokers due to lack of offensive capability and the high ac they require to find success against melees.

3. Too high level of skill/chasing speed required to utilize the class effectively. Hence why we see only new players that play them or the few that move on to become Crusaders.

4. Too weak vs rogues. Rogues should nearly NEVER die to a Paladin.

5. Unable to do much damage while laglocked vs highly decked melees.

After thinking about it the increased spell level would affect wrath as well. Which is not something I believe should be done anymore.

My suggestions are as follows;

Remove the thrust forcing people to dismount. I don't believe a class as powerful as a vampire should have any special advantages over a class that's supposed to be strong against them. Fairly certain that history and statistics has shown this is not the case. Also had no idea there was a racial bonus in favor of vamps in this matchup. Why is this there? Should it be removed?

Rename Flamestrike to Holy Fire and increase damage slightly. Damage to flamestrike was reduced in the past, now but saves have dramatically increased. Seems only fitting.

New skills

Possible addition of flails to there arsenal. And/or giving them the ability to bless there weapons.

Anoint weapon -  Seeing the Cleric's success of embuing there God's favor into there weaponry. The Paladin's have learned to do the same. Depending on the God of light they call upon in combat will allow there weaponry to take on special properties in there missions.

• Compassion = Causing a weakened prog version of the holy water affect (explained below)
• Purity = Make it nodrop, norem, and/or flameblind, this way they can combine polearm affects and sockets to suit there needs better. Purity Paladins almost always go Praetorian anyway so it just allows them to get that weapon faster and have to choose between the anointed weapon that does flameblind or the chaosbane weapon that does its affect.
• Faith = Change damage noun to faith.
• Tranquility = Cure serious in combat.
• All = +1 to +2 average damage.
• Only one weapon can be anointed at any one time.

Holy light - After years of inflexibility of tradition Paladin to adapt. The Paladin guild of new have learned to commune greater strength into there holy fire ability. From the God's of light the flamestrike's properties have reached divine status. There enemies not only become more susceptible to there divine punishment but have also found it difficult to hide in the darkness where they once sought refuge. Cannot be used with herosim or holy word. 

• Taken from my own and combined with Pali's idea. Blessed Warrior's holy fire is significantly improved - it now strikes the holy vuln as well as the fire vuln, with a baseline increase in damage vs all, increasing the flameblind chance to land, and has a chance to cast holy water as an additional affect. This should preferably be a separate spell that can't be utilized with herosim/holy word. Forcing the Paladin to choose between the two.
• Would make the class much more attractive to the casual player.

Holy water - Years of studying into the weaknesses of Witches and the Undead have allowed the Paladin to uncover the sacred ritual to channel the Lord's light into ordinary water. When thrown into the air, the minions of darkness have found there armors drenched in the holy water. Becoming more vulnerable to the Paladin's blows.

• I'd prefer to see this as a more reliable skill not a spell
• Causes a burn effect lasting 5 ticks (only affects evil) (similar to lotus scourge does hits, then grazes, then scratches)
• Similar to faerie fire by preventing them from hiding. When trying to hide the opponent would see "The light does not lose track of you." "You cannot withdraw from the light" etc.
• While also lasting 8 ticks that reduces ac randomly each other or every 3rd tick (starting at 10ish up to 20ish) and/or the ac only stacks by subsequent landings on the opponent. Can easily be adjusted for balance.
• I believe this solves there problem with being offensive, getting kills, rogues running circles around them, all the while not changing how they are meant to be played, as an attrition class. Also resolves the issue of them not being able to do any damage while getting laglocked.

I think you guys are mangling to much the class, that had things that worked.

Paladins don't need a new holy damage spell, they have Wrath for that.

Paladins don't need a new fire spell. Flame strike worked.

The Goliath idea is great.

For me Paladins have problems with Warriors, because they can't attrition due to warriors dealing to much damage on them and lagging them in place.

1. Mounted combat -

Being mounted should reduce the lag on bash/bodyslam/push/graple, not just decrease the chance to get lagged. They don't lag, and shouldn't be lagged easily.

A mounted paladin should also have special attacks like some ninjas RPed as horse bite/kick. No need to introduce more complexity with a mob horse.

A paladin should have access to spears, so that he can use mounted charge with a shield.

Mounted charge should bypass counter and deal 4 rounds of lag. There should be a check to halve that to 2 rounds if he is dual wielding (due to spears).

Mounted charge should always deal the weapon type of damage.

Mounted charge on a PC should have have a long cool down like 4 tics, 1 tic (0 hours) for NPC's.

Mounted charge should work during the cool down but be reduced to normal counter-able charge with no lag (as is now).

Mounted charge meale bonus go away (replaced by other buffs in other stuff).

1. Meele

Paladins should learn spears and flail so that they can dual wield efficiently.

Paladins should have another defense. Paladins don't have a DK output, so they should have at least a lot better defense. If a paladin is mounted, his horse should guard him. Like Necros mummies, ranger mammoth or other Guard code stuff, Solid but worse than a regular defense.

Paladins should have access to blind. Flame-strike should be upgraded to either have an higher blinding chance, OR at least have a hard-coded 25% chance of 0 hours blind if opponent not blinded.

THAC0 should be improved to allow Paladins to better pierce armor without needing huge hitroll.

1. Magic

Wrath should clearly say when it's being cast at gimped power due to opponent low HP. The HP limit should be lowered to 25% of HP for PC's. Holy word on falling auto-curses target if not yet cursed.

Virtuous light should give AC reduction comparable to bark skin. (- Level * 1.5)

Heroism should allow frenzy. Since frenzy allows Heroism. Heroism should grant saves, or at least +STR (or just give them giant strength spell, but on heroism is more RPish). Heroism should block Fear, all fears.

Lay on Hands should work on self.

Paladins should gain bless arms. Bless arms should also be expanded em brought inline with the new times.

1. Rogues

Paladins should have something to prevent them from being sheep vs thief/ninjas/rangers.

Paladins using poison or Plague should fall (that thing Good aligned get when they kill another good).

Paladins should have access to a class faerie fire spell clone SKILL that prevents hide. **Mark. **

Lawful Paladins should ignore saves and Mark on a 50% chance. Non Lawfull Mark should do the same to WANTED/OUTLAW.

Lawful Paladins wrath should strike WANTED or Chaotic like it strikes evils (even good aligned).

Paladins wrath should strike OUTLAWS like it strikes evils.

Note: The idea is to keep Paladins vuln when trying to bring people out of hide, but allow them to fight back if attacked.

Also, to promote Lawful Paladins in Justice service. And if neutral syndicates think they can avoid their immoral choice in life by being neutrals, then the gods will empower Paladins to show them the  error of their ways. (more like not gimp the paladins on such a fight).

Also the idea is to avoid giving +spell levels to this and that, as that will make any semblance of game balance in saves impossible due to insane complexity.

Yes to horse strikes over mob goliath.

On Thrust, devils advocate here, people always say there is a bane for everything. Here this one single path available allows a paladin to be knocked off his horse, ONE avenue available to a limited class, seems ok to me. I would rather see thrust protection made available.

I would like to see mounted charge less equipment reliant, if a small weapon is chosen, lower the damage and say the Paladin ran you the hell over.

JMO

Except that a paladin should be the vampire's bane, not the other way round. ;) 

I hadn't thought of making the horse's attacks work like ninja strikes, I like it a lot.  Not having an actual mob would have to be simpler than coding one to work with heroism.

New Perk

Bareback years spent in and around the stables has taught you secrets about mounts. Mount times doubles for purchased or summoned mounts. Mount lag decreased. 50% less likely to be thrust from your horse.

New Skill

Redemption

syntax: automatic

The Goliath serves the paladin bravely and sure and become incredibly protective when the paladin is not safe on its back. When a paladin is dismounted in combat, the strikes of mighty Goliath increase in both number and strength.

8 hours ago, Fool_Hardy said:

I would like to see mounted charge less equipment reliant, if a small weapon is chosen, lower the damage and say the Paladin ran you the hell over.

It isn't EQ reliant. All it has ATM is a check to see if you are wielding a jousting weapon like a Polearm or Spear. Which makes a lot of sense and is a great mechanic to prevent OP dual wield charges on people, since Mounted charge lags over Protective shield. You could charge with a practice glaive and you would not notice a change over hell-Fury. That is why I proposed to allow it to deal damage type of weapon. So that you can charge giants for magical damage, since after all you are driving the point of your weapon into your oponent.

I really love the idea of making paladins the "Mounted Combat" champion of FL.  The Golliath change alone is probably all they really need.  Give them a little extra defense and a little extra offense by allowing Golliath to kick and buck out of combat.  Now the Golliath's kick is where we could have some fun for little extra offense.

The kick itself could have a random chance to cause a few different effects such as disorientation, headbutt effect, 2 round lag, etc.

Going any other route with paladins starts to make them either more like clerics or more like warriors and I don't like that.  However, adding spear and/or flail is a good idea too...but I would remove mace.  I don't think mace fits the RP.

51 minutes ago, Mmm Beer said:

The kick itself could have a random chance to cause a few different effects such as disorientation, headbutt effect, 2 round lag, etc.

2 rounds of lag would be a bit much, but I like the idea overall.  The attack could have a few different names, with different effects having a chance for each: thunderclap/headbutt from a kick, bleeding from a bite, 1/2 round lag from a trample, and so on.  Definitely not something that would proc every time the attack does, but something with a small chance that improves as you improve the mounted combat skill.