Atheist/Agnostic Warcry and Sacrifice

So I was thinking about this and I think that Creator doesn't fit very well. Even having a 'creator' sort of goes against their outlooks and the help files for both religions to a degree. My proposal is to change "Creator" to be Aabrahan. The lands themselves are definite and indisputable. It would also give some flavor back to the name of the lands!

I would interject that calling to the lands for help would fall under a form of nature worship, so I would say the better route would be to have the warcry message changed to just an angry shout, or an echo about drawing on power from within.

FOR SCIENCE!!!!

47 minutes ago, Lloth said:

I would interject that calling to the lands for help would fall under a form of nature worship

That's far fetched....

Atheist Warrior shouts "For the Glory of Unbelievers!"

Atheist Berserker shouts "Unbelievers, I bring forth your Fury!"

Atheist Ranger shouts "Unbelievers heed my Call!"

Druid Atheist should have their tongues cut out.

Agnostic Warrior shouts "I am , feel my Strength!"

Agnostic Berserker shouts "Feel the Fury of Mortal Wrath!"

Agnostic Ranger shouts "Hear the Mighty Hunter!"

Druid Agnostic should be considered, seriously. Edit: I define Agnostic as belief in one's self. Self belief and the end of the day should not translate as lack of faith. Considered faith in ones abilities.

How about just: "For glory!" and "I bring forth my fury!", "There can be only one!", etc.?

1 hour ago, Lloth said:

calling to the lands for help would fall under a form of nature worship

Another option would be just "Creation" instead of "Creator", but since nature worship in FL does generally direct to the current Nature god or aspects of nature or the lands I do not believe it would be Aabahran itself.

3 minutes ago, Celerity said:

How about just: "For glory!" and "I bring forth my fury!", "There can be only one!", etc.?

I dig this, but that only covers the warcry and not the sacrifice.

I hate to say it but maybe these two religions shouldn't be allowed to sacrifice....

Same answer though: remove the target (or change to powers above). You sacrifice a corpse (to the powers above). You gain 10 coins. Atheism/Agnosticism in FL isn't about disbelieving the existence of 'gods' as beings, but rather their divinity.

Every atheist knows that Anume exists, they just reject that she is somehow more special than an extremely powerful mortal. Communed spells work on non-believers, as does recall. May as well let them get coins. I can sacrifice to these very powerful beings and get gold, but that doesn't mean I accept their divine position. I can recall to their temple, but I don't grant them my soul.

It is akin to accepting money from a religious leader. Doesn't mean you believe in them. I could sacrifice my pen to my coworker if she paid me 10 dollars for it. Similar situation.

Why must there be a designation at all for These two religions.

You sacrifice * to fund your endeavors, you receive $ coins.

And yet another option for warcries would be to set some defaults...some basic examples would be hometown, Aabahran, race, religion(current), clan, cabal or none. Then, the player can select which default they want to yell to and it yells to that cause. Atheists wouldn't be able to select 'religion', so they'd have to yell about their hometown/clan/cabal/etc.

"For the Glory of Val Miran!"

"For the Glory of Humanity!"

"For the Glory of Aabahran!"

"For the Glory of Knight!"

"For the Glory of Anume!"

"For the Glory of Hope!"

"For Glory!"

It is kind of a pre-custom string. Gives some built-in variety, but doesn't need to be manually checked like the custom warcries. I'm sure there are plenty of religious characters that might prefer to yell to their hometown or whatever for RP purposes over their god.

For level 50s, there is the option to apply for a customized warcry, which you yourself choose for your character. We've limited it to level 50s, as many chars are discarded prior to reaching that rank, so this spares us a lot of work.

3 hours ago, f0xx said:

That's far fetched....

How? 

The lore behind Gaia is pretty intertwined with the physical Aabahran. I mean, the Gorgorak is actually made of Aabahran... and it was a champion of Gaia before it became corrupted. It's more far fetched to say otherwise, to be honest. The GGK's very existence - and the lore behind it - is, arguably, a giant middle finger to athiesm/agnosticism, because it says "Gaia is real, and is a part of Aabahran".

That doesn't stop anyone from making a character that doesn't see things in that light, but I would argue that such a premise is quite a bit more far fetched. Plausible, but a great deal less plausible. But then, A/A has always had that barrier, so it isn't new. Doesn't make what I said less true or easy to believe.

I can agree to disagree on it, I am just curious to your thought process.

There are two branches of interpretations of what Aabahran means as an ideology. The first is Aabahran as it is now, and the second is Aabahran as it should be.

--

Aabahran as it is now:

Aabahran is a place of competing powers. It includes all the entities that use these powers (mortals, immortals, inanimate objects)  and the sources of those powers (Vortex, Gods, Limbo, Gaia, and so forth). Some of the entities/sources are sentient, some are not, but they all participate in the environment known as Aabahran. An atheist believes an immortal is a user of power, but not a source (making them divine).

Aabahran includes little nature (processes of natural processes, i.g. life, normal physics, and anything else we observe in our out-of-game physical world) as well as big Nature (manifestations of Gaia's power -- such as werebeasts or the Gorgorak). Aabahran, as it is now, includes both nature and Nature, but isn't limited to that. Aabahran also includes every other source of power, some of them foreign, but still make up what the characters know as Aabahran. Magic for instance. If you believe in Aabahran as it is now, you most certainly do not believe in the dominance of either nature or Nature. This would be the majority of realist characters...those who act on their observations.

Aabahran as it should be:

This is the conclusion of any competing power's efforts to shape Aabahran. There are as many potential Aabahrans as there are ideologies. Many of the major powers simply want to fashion Aabahran in their image (Nature, Limbo, etc.), whereas others may be absolutely passive (nature, non-sentient mortals). This includes every possible belief, so it can mean literally anything. Those who interpret Aabahran this way would be characters who put more stock into their beliefs.

When somebody believes in Aabahran, it can mean literally everything. Big Nature is a powerful force and little nature makes up a great deal of Aabahran as it is now. However, other entities and sources are also acting in Aabahran, and so today's Aabahran encompasses much more than nature or Nature. If the character believes in some idealized form of Aabahran, Nature (especially) and nature are very likely to be much less prevalent.

That is why it is far fetched to think of Aabahran as being close to Nature/nature. If anything, "Aabahran" worship is about as close as we can come to agnosticism in game. It is a recognition of other forces potentially at work, but their mechanisms are unobservable or unknowable. I can see a Gorgorak, and I can be told something called "Gaia" is the source, but that doesn't mean I accept it. Gaia could be a powerful elf for all I know, for instance. Atheism in Aabahran isn't the rejection of magic or other sources of power, it is the rejection of the divinity of the immortals.

The Gorgorak could simply just be another powerful monster, born of nature magic. That Gaia created it isn't proof of Gaia's divinity, it is proof of Gaia's power (to the atheist/agnostic). Just like summoning a pet/charmie doesn't make you a divine force.

Aabahran isn't just the land beneath your feet or the wind in the air. It isn't only the manifestations of Gaia either. Those are parts of it, but the whole is much, much greater.

11 minutes ago, Celerity said:

 If anything, "Aabahran" worship is about as close as we can come to agnosticism in game. It is a recognition of other forces potentially at work, but their mechanisms are unobservable or unknowable.

This part is a fun thing to have you say, since you don't have a current character. 

As for what I said at first, I think you're reading a bit further into it than I intended. When I said that, I meant more of the physical manifestation of Aabahran as a world. If you're making an ideology out of the concept of what Aabahran could/should be... that's different. It's also far less common, which is why it begged the question on why it is more out of place to see it as a manifestation of Nature than it is to see it as a theistic symbol.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just polling for more of an opinion than three words.

Yeah, you are choosing nature or Nature as your interpretation of what Aabahran is. It is a valid interpretation and is fine. That interpretation isn't far fetched. Extrapolating that one interpretation to mean that is the primary interpretation of what Aabahran is quite the jump though. It is one of an infinite amount of possibilities, but it is a big one, certainly (thus having a religion in game). By being atheist/agnostic in game, though, you are directly rejecting that interpretation/definition of Aabahran.

My post was trying to show how an atheist could quite rationally believe in Aabahran yet reject Nature as divine.

I'd argue how I described it is not only very common, it covers every possibility I can imagine. Every character either accepts the definition of Aabahran as it is now or is trying to change it to something else. Not necessarily Aabahran as a theistic symbol, but it is possible, and even as a theistic symbol, it could still mean any possible interpretation.

Of course, I don't understand at all that bit about me not having a current character making my quote fun, but must be a reference to something happening in game.

I was still editing my post when you posted, so it is updated a bit more now to clarify.

I think, really, we're mostly on the same page. I just like to play the devil's advocate.

When I think of Aabahran, I do not think of the world itself. Until Lloth made the connection I thought Aabahran made sense.

You see, Aabahran to the unbeliever, is the giver of life. < Fact checked. True.

Without Aabahran in the mind of the unbeliever, life itself would cease. < Fact checked. Also true.

Aabahran itself is alive (I believe anyway), let me explain. If the server is running regardless if mortals or immortals are present, the show goes on oblivious to our presence or lack there of. Now alive is a relative term, you must understand that the river lives to know that flow is the first sign of life.

Edit:

Nature = World

Aabahran = Realm

The Immortals live in Aabahran, not upon it.

Just my personal perspective.

On 04/01/2017 at 6:38 PM, Celerity said:

How about just: "For glory!" and "I bring forth my fury!", "There can be only one!", etc.?

How about "I RULE!!!!". :D

Sacrificing could be done in the name of Ancestors , like chinese... cult of ancestors do?  More like honoring his blood line than worship.

For blood....

On 1/14/2017 at 5:53 PM, mya said:

How about "I RULE!!!!". :D

First thing I thought of when I read this:

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