Aelythuen Elf Psi Trib vs Oiydi H-Elf BMG Watcher

2 hours ago, Anonymous said:

Potentially some dream spells need to be realigned to other circles so you can free up some 3rd circle options.  But I see your path as easily having 4 egos, 4 mind thrusts, at least 3 mind blasts, and your big damage spell....and that other 6th circle spell you have that would you more thrusts/blasts.  Shouldn't that be enough?

Aely

It is enough only if you move the other spells in that circle around.  Otherwise, how are you any different than a Destruction or Alteration psi?  Now, if you condense all the spells I mentioned into one, then we are talking.  Having to choose between another mind blast or the affects you get when you put someone to sleep WILL make different plays definitely and I'm fine with that.  But, Destruction plays very different than Alteration.  Domination plays very different from them both.  I'm trying here not to give away too much and get into trouble so I'm leaving out what spells actually do.  Find me IC and I'm game for discussing it IC because it is a problem.  It is just the different circles have different problems in terms of being OP.

-Cirilha

Honestly I don't see a problem with PSI's outside of the amount of mana drained from mind blast. I would have thought it closer to maybe 20-40 mana per hit instead of around 90-110. I've never seen the interaction of PSI's against Invoker, does mana shield prevent the damage/loss of mana?

I think tactically Oiydi made a couple of critical mistakes that caused the loss there. As soon as the kinesis was on him I would have suggested moving far enough away for it to dissipate. He only has so many slots for those before he will need to reset, so if he keeps landing them, keep moving far enough away and catching a tick or two to regen the lost HP. If he goes to reset, that is your time to strike as that is when a PSI is most vulnerable.

If he wasn't aware of the very high damage spell, he should be now and watch how low he sits. Recalling home was a mistake as the lag gives the PSI enough time to Tribunal Spell to him and drop the hammer.

I will still say it is far too easy for a psi to drop mental saves AND the duration of them.  Unless you are a class that can outdamage them by far, you aren't going to have much luck.  The fact that they can stack it nearly indefinitely.....

-Cirilha

I whole heartedly agree ^^  It took a pretty decked minotaur opening with charge every single time to land a kill on Aely.  Gerfunkel only died a couple times too AFAIK.  And I don't know if Cirilha has yet.  They have too much power in combined sustain and offense without memorization requirements.

Aely

PSI too stronk

Few things are more offensive than a Fire Giant Zerk with Fire weapons and forms and in this case -70 mental saves and I never actually outmelee'd one (unless they made mistakes like forgetting sanctuary). Psi's might have issues with classes that have lighting/thunder spells due to there high AC. Maybe magic resist races would have a better go too. But these are weaknesses many classes have to contend with.

With Mino Charge being one of the few things able to take one down reveals another glaring issue imho. I think Minotaur charge still might need a little more balancing too. Maybe a 0 or 1 tick timer on it. Give them one extra point of str or dex to compensate.

Lecitus

The mino charge is the only reason to roll a mino though. With Gunkus I absolutely slaughtered any class without counter, that was too aggressive or careless with their flee walking. 

If a class had counter, I felt like a stone giant when fighting them. If I was fighting a person who could keep composure and not walk back into me, the charge bonus is moot.

Funny thing is, I always got bitched at for mino charge but I began using it for the damage. Usually a MASSACRES through sanc, the lag is just a bonus. There are many ways to stop a mino from charging as well.

Dont fight near your hometown.

Blind

Calm

Slow

Lag

And as far as I know, there is an increased lag to the mino on the charge.

Being able to do it endlessly is equally as broken as Psi's IMO.  It's way too easy to setup triggers that follow and charge or charge on sight.  Not saying that everyone does this, but I know it has been done and it's the single most devastating skill for triggers.  I don't think putting a 0-tick timer on mino charge would in any way nerf minos.  They'd still get to charge 3x more than anyone else, are large size and have no vuln.  And you can still charge counter classes, you just have to use ONE of your other skills first.  I know this is hard for mino players but yes, you do have other skills  :P

Aely

3 hours ago, Anonymous said:

Being able to do it endlessly is equally as broken as Psi's IMO.  It's way too easy to setup triggers that follow and charge or charge on sight.  Not saying that everyone does this, but I know it has been done and it's the single most devastating skill for triggers.  I don't think putting a 0-tick timer on mino charge would in any way nerf minos.  They'd still get to charge 3x more than anyone else, are large size and have no vuln.  And you can still charge counter classes, you just have to use ONE of your other skills first.  I know this is hard for mino players but yes, you do have other skills  :P

Aely

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh my ass off reading this. I'm the only one who has ever been accused of trigger charging and to this day, the accusation is still bullshit.

Oh trust me, it's not just you nor was that targeted at you.  It's not very difficult to read a log and figure out a trigger is being used.

Aely

I don't find minotaur charge OP for the lag or what it does for minotaur berserkers.  What I do find OP about it is that it can be spammed in a room and there is no way to walk in on a minotaur spamming charge and get the first hit unless they lag.  Now, if there was a small delay on activating the skill, it would mean they would literally have to be faster than their opponent and use it at the right time.  This also means they would suffer, but only slightly, against an autosneaking class or cabal.  It should be an offensive skill, not a defensive one.  This will make it such.

-Cirilha

7 hours ago, Anonymous said:

Being able to do it endlessly is equally as broken as Psi's IMO.  It's way too easy to setup triggers that follow and charge or charge on sight.  Not saying that everyone does this, but I know it has been done and it's the single most devastating skill for triggers.  I don't think putting a 0-tick timer on mino charge would in any way nerf minos.  They'd still get to charge 3x more than anyone else, are large size and have no vuln.  And you can still charge counter classes, you just have to use ONE of your other skills first.  I know this is hard for mino players but yes, you do have other skills  :P

Aely

The 0 tick timer would prevent the stun from being endless. Right now a Minotaur can charge for stun maybe 3-4 times in the duration of a tick. Making this change means the victim only has to be worried about getting charged once per tick and can fight comfortably without having to worry about another one until the next tick. Currently any class can still charge for damage repeatedly fyi. 

Triggers are pretty devastating for initiating skills that almost never fail and have little to no drawback if they do fail. I.E. Charge and Petrify. Are triggers the issues or the skills themselves...? 

Lecitus

41 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

I don't find minotaur charge OP for the lag or what it does for minotaur berserkers.  What I do find OP about it is that it can be spammed in a room and there is no way to walk in on a minotaur spamming charge and get the first hit unless they lag.  Now, if there was a small delay on activating the skill, it would mean they would literally have to be faster than their opponent and use it at the right time.  This also means they would suffer, but only slightly, against an autosneaking class or cabal.  It should be an offensive skill, not a defensive one.  This will make it such.

-Cirilha

iirc, apprehend was once lagless. i had a trib fairly recently and learned that it is no longer the case. strikes me as a similar thing.

46 minutes ago, Aeva said:

iirc, apprehend was once lagless. i had a trib fairly recently and learned that it is no longer the case. strikes me as a similar thing.

You recall correctly. Was especially nasty when you got wanted as a lowbie and the blood guard did an obscene amount of damage despite the scaling.

I'll just echo Lecitus' point. A skill that can be abused with a trigger should lead us to ask the question - is the issue the trigger or the skill?

Personally, my opinion is that people play Minotaurs incredibly rarely, despite the fact that they're generally a decent race. With that in mind, minotaur charge in its current form is the only reason people choose to play the race. So if it were changed to include a 0 hour timer - which I don't disagree with, as that would require you to use the lag strategically vs just benefiting from the extra damage - then my opinion would be that they would need something else to make them enjoyable to play. Adding a point or two of dex might be something worth considering. Making them genuinely giant sized could be something as well, as I believe they're "large" currently.

But I do think all this begs the question - why don't people play minotaurs, and when they do, why are they always the target of "OP" criticism? Yet if they're "OP", why are they consistently a flash in the pan and then we go six months or longer without seeing another one?

5 hours ago, Anonymous said:

Oh trust me, it's not just you nor was that targeted at you.  It's not very difficult to read a log and figure out a trigger is being used.

Aely

I got accused for using triggers because charge XXXX was always in my bar and I can chase using the numpad. If you pay close attention to flee directions, its super easy to move and charge. If I fought people with sneak, I tried to go to rooms with limited exits to better my chances of luckily going the right direction.

1 hour ago, Anonymous said:

I don't find minotaur charge OP for the lag or what it does for minotaur berserkers.  What I do find OP about it is that it can be spammed in a room and there is no way to walk in on a minotaur spamming charge and get the first hit unless they lag.  Now, if there was a small delay on activating the skill, it would mean they would literally have to be faster than their opponent and use it at the right time.  This also means they would suffer, but only slightly, against an autosneaking class or cabal.  It should be an offensive skill, not a defensive one.  This will make it such.

-Cirilha

Same can go for blackjack, strangle, sleep, hypnosis, ecstacy, etc... Not a good argument.

Just now, Zhurong said:

Same can go for blackjack, strangle, sleep, hypnosis, ecstacy, etc... Not a good argument.

Blackjack has a counter.  Strangle has a counter.  Hypnosis has a counter.  All of those counters can be done AHEAD of time.  Charge has no counter which you can prep.  Either blind the minotaur or don't enter the room.

-Cirilha

16 minutes ago, EllaThePuppy said:

But I do think all this begs the question - why don't people play minotaurs, and when they do, why are they always the target of "OP" criticism? Yet if they're "OP", why are they consistently a flash in the pan and then we go six months or longer without seeing another one?

Much the same can be said for many combos that are considered OP. The pb resorts to ooc and ic abuse or simply not playing around them. You get little to no respect. And depending upon the player behind the combo, you  might start to receive very little satisfaction to playing a class considered op and not fixed. In the end its just terrible for the game. Just the way it is across any game. Its nothing new here.

1 minute ago, Anonymous said:

Blackjack has a counter.  Strangle has a counter.  Hypnosis has a counter.  All of those counters can be done AHEAD of time.  Charge has no counter which you can prep.  Either blind the minotaur or don't enter the room.

-Cirilha

Or eat the first charge, wait for them to flee, move away. Reset the fight. Btw, during Slinore's tenure, try getting past a petrify trib psi. Your petrified, guard auto takes the front, your paralyzed and screwed. There's ways around Minos, just figure it will be like being a shaman trying to get the fight to go your way. It will take time.