why? My thought is that this slightly nerfs anger zerks since the offhand cleave skill is now moot.
Also, being able to weapon cleave is a great way to get an opponent to have to run when a dev zerk raged too early and the fight isn't going their way. Not quite a get out of jail free card, but it gives devastation zerks a lot more leeway.
P_body, this change, while awesome and game changing for zerks, is not as forgiving of bad choices as you suggest.
First off, rage and cleave is only a successful strategy against unprepared enemies. It will not work against most enemies that even have a small clue how to fight zerks, especially melee ones. In fact, the only potentially overpowered scenario that comes to mind is an Anger Zerk cleaving against an Invoker, since Anger Zerks can cleave everything (if memory serves, even staves. been a long time since i played one, so this may be inaccurate.) I don't know enough about Crusaders to know if this would cripple any of their builds, admittedly, so I will concede a possible second instance.
All this means for classes fighting against a zerk is that they bring non-rare weapons to the fight. Warriors will still outmelee the zerk, Battlemages can't lose their dancing blades. Nobody fighting the zerk is placed in a position (except in the case above) where a cleaved weapon will always be gamechanging. Certainly, a well timed cleave can change the course of battle. That's already true against non-burnproof weapons. This change only extends that bit of zerk strategy to compete with what I presume to be a QoL change for cabal members (cabal burnproofing) that rendered the skill a tertiary ability.
If the zerker rages inappropriately, they will still likely die. If the zerker never attempts haymaker, they will still likely die. If the zerker has terrible weapon choice, they will still likely die. This change does not make zerkers any less about strategy. They still have the same pitfalls and dangers, minus fighting burnproof weapons. Rage is still a double edged sword. Panic is still a double edged sword. They still only get 3 attacks per round. They still have very poor defenses. All this change means is that you should bring several nonrare weapons to the fight. Make them as small and light as possible (hint hint).
why? My thought is that this slightly nerfs anger zerks since the offhand cleave skill is now moot.
Actually, it makes it that much better when you consider what else it works on and some of the classes that use them. Invokers will feel this change the most.
Also' date=' being able to weapon cleave is a great way to get an opponent to have to run when a dev zerk raged too early and the fight isn't going their way. Not quite a get out of jail free card, but it gives devastation zerks a lot more leeway.[/quote']
Not correct at all. A dev zerk that raged too early has much more to worry about than whether or not they have a weapon. And anyone with a brain will bring several non-rare ones to the fight to negate that cleave. The zerk cant flee, nor can it lag the person it cleaved until its own lag wears off. That gives the opponent time to flee and heal up the damage and come back with a different weapon. Dev zerks raged can't afford to chase in most areas either, as they will attack everything. If the opponent runs into a city, guess who gets stuck fighting guards while their prey runs off somewhere safe, or worse, comes back and takes advantage of the zerk's mistake of chasing.
Weapon cleave change is in no way a get out of jail free card, it merely changes the dynamics a bit for fighting against zerks, making it slightly more challenging and prep-intensive than spending some time in the cabal.
I don't wanna take the time to address each of your points. A couple are invalid, most aren't bad IMO.
Here's some comments:
I'm not saying the change means all you have to do is use weapon cleave and you'll be uber awesome and all powerful. What I AM saying is that if you use appropriate strategy and are halfway decent with a zerk, being able to immediately break burn proof weapons will make you a powerhouse. It will CERTAINLY increase your survivability, and make you significantly more lethal (this is only assuming the Zerk is decent to good or great). Countering power strikes are more about fixing glaring issues that turns a newb into a PK King, and the vets into unstoppable monstrosities. Us in the middle aren't really a part of the reason why these things get changed.
Some counter-arguments to things you said:
A raged zerk does not auto attack guards in a city (no mobs ever). Only other players in their pk range. Chasing through a city scenario isn't valid.
Anger zerks are STILL nerfed, because offhand cleave is irrelevant. You can only weapon cleave weapons (all weapon types can be cleaved potentially). You can only shield cleave shields. If this type of change stays, offhand cleave should be changed to a more useful skill.
Also, YES weapon cleave is nearly a get out of jail free card. Why? Because TIMING. I wait for the tick. I land a dirt kick, THEN I weapon cleave (successful more often than not) which still leaves me somewhere between 5-8 rounds of a blinded, one/no weapon opponent. You think they're gonna stick around to soak up damage? Nope! They'll flee a room or two. The point here is that the zerk WANTS to run himself, not chase. He's raged and is trying to get out of dodge. So as soon as the opponent flees, the zerk books it out of the area on the double. Not a perfect strategy, but it will work VERY well pretty often.
Fire zerks just got rid of their biggest bane 
Just don't let Emp see this change plz.
Baha, too late. I already ran off and told him.
Yes. Yes he did.
To clarify:
A warrior will not outmelee a zerk. Not if the players are of equal skill level. I will happily roll any giant zerk combo vs any melee oriented combo to prove this point.
Giving zerks the ability to "break" burnproofs is ****ing glorious. While I still stand by the fact this is an unneeded change, I feel absolutely sorry for the first of you I get ahold of after rolling my FG fury Reaver.
Those of you assuming this change only affects Invokers are in sore need of playing some zerks. There has never been a fight where I have not at least tried a cleave. I rarely use it, but I always master it. Reason being is it IS a useful skill, but formerly was very easily negated via spending some CP.
I do have a few questions about this change though:
Firstly, does this change also effect Certain malforms (think masokant), and Invoker's hellstream/ice storm.
Secondly, if you break a weapon, is the opponent still wielding it? or is it autodropped to inventory. I cannot express how thrilled I would be to break a steelfeather, or a staff of nature's spirits only to have them run off and talisman it away.
RE: P body.
It seems like most of your zerk advice is theoretical, while all of mine is derived 100% from serious playing (I have played at least 2 of each zerk race except demon, and undead. Many more ogres, and Fire giants.) While some of the tactics you outline could work, I assure you they are not where you want to be. Playing an attrition game as a zerk is mildly silly (Though Nekky plays his zerks very conservatively). Warriors have a Throttle, a brake, turn signals, and headlights. Berserkers have a Throttle, and a horn. You hit the gas, and lay on the horn. First, if your trading dirt kicks with a warrior, your not landing a weapon cleave (you do not get blind fighting remember?) and if you do, it is a very reduced chance. If you want to set up a good cleave, you need to see. Start with some lag, then a cleave. The warrior will have kicked dirt in response to your slam, and their dirt should go through after your cleave, meaning you get 2 rounds in which they lagged themselves, and have a a mangled piece of metal in hand.
Another thing your doing is comparing the usage of path of devastation's rage with path of anger or fury. Path of Devastation = you cannot flee. That's it. You get the exact same number of defenses (roar = dodge more or less) with a titanic boost to hit/dam. Now if your using a fire weapon and your a fire giant, your around 119% weapon proficiency, 120 if it is two handed. Your going to defend, and they are going to defend ALOT less reliably. Factor in something highly offensive like axes, flails, polearms, or exotics, and your going to be dishing out very high levels of damage. You can look up nearly every log involving Azzar, and you can watch my first 2 commands, I can guarantee that 99% of all my fights, rage is #1 or #2. Now alot of those fights came close, could you imagine if I was able to cleave burnproof weapons? Thats every Blademaster, Cleric, and Crusader now gives me a much easier fight. Dressed in rags wielding only a fire lance I fought Tassin's crusader stormy. I raged of course, and we stood in one room with him lagging me so long my rage dropped from duration. Had I been able to cleave his holy weapon, I bet I could have won that fight, I simply could do nothing but stand there because his ac was so massive I simply could not land a haymaker, but stripping him of his offensive output would have easily made it a fight I could win.
I've played no successful zerks and only three to pin. One anger and two dev.
My ideas are mostly theoretical and may not work perfectly, but they do outline the premise. Yours do a better job with concrete examples.
The point i think we are getting at is the same though, isn't it?
Two questions:
How am i comparing paths? I'm saying there are times whena dev zerk might want to flee but couldn't. Now it's possible they could.
Second,
Highest ive ever seen a fire giant prof was 117% with a blazing bardiche. you sure it goes to 120?
I think he is adding Deva paths version of expertise?
What you taking about enethier? Nameless menyions roar as a defense. Pretty sure he os referencing blood haze. Expertise is additional.
While some of the tactics you outline could work' date=' I assure you they are not where you want to be. Playing an attrition game as a zerk is mildly silly (Though Nekky plays his zerks very conservatively).[/quote']
Who are you calling conservative?! :trouble:
Who are you calling conservative?! :trouble:
Come at me, bro! Start swinging that weapon! Roll that berserker! DO IT!!!! (Nike)
Yes, if you take a fire giant wielding a 2 handed fire weapon of his expertise, and type prof self weapon, you will see 120%, with 113 two handed.
And as a dev zerk there is a quest item you get for completing basic guild quests that alleviates the need to actually flee. And you should be using it if things go south (stone of recall?) Things get hairy, you sheath, hold, brandish.
I haven't said anything, because frankly until now I had nothing positive to add to this change. Still don't know if I have.
Giving zerks the ability to "break" burnproofs is ****ing glorious. While I still stand by the fact this is an unneeded change' date=' I feel absolutely sorry for the first of you I get ahold of after rolling my FG fury Reaver.[/quote']
I will say that is well beyond ****ing glorious, at least for the zerker.
Once you realize what this change really brings, you will be paralyzed like a deer in front of a high speed car headlights rushing you to your pit.
In the beginning Zerkers in were a bit underwhelming. Few really knew how to play them, and the introduction of auto-arrows really killed them vs most melees.
Then they got a path revamp. That was further revamped.
This brought great potential to the class, but still few know how to really play a berzerker. Just like Shamans, zerk strategy is just alien when compared with other classes.
That was really the problem of with zerks, not lack of class power.
This change will just catapult Zerks from a powerful hard to master class to one of the best combos in the game.
A Devastation zerk will only have to rage and spam cleave to totally dominate a encounter.
What is his opponent do after his third rare weapon has been cleaved? Start pulling avg 16 dam hunting axes from his backpack by the dozen?
I imagine that crusaders are going to have the worst of this. Limited to 2 handed weapons, the moment he misses a rush, he is going to eat 3 rounds of combat vs a raged zerk with no weapon. I doubt most will pass the 2 rounds.
DK's can totally forget risking their malform on a zerk. In fact, if I was a DK I would never fight one unless there was a contract on his head.
Invokers charging their staff is going to disappear. Most of them will most likely wield a mace and a stave, if they are smart.
Non illithid necros ... become an even greater joke.
And werebeast, get another reason to not be chosen as a zerk race.
Did zerks really need this change? Against whom? Mages? Meeles?
Because you could just make broken weapons deal 0 damage and still allow defense. Just like when you wield a weapon you have no proficiency in.
Why penalize players double by removing their offense and their defense.
Hey The-Nameless want to know who comes out of this mostly unaffected?
Monks who don't use weapons, and Clerics
Also, why go reaver, Just roll a Stone dev zerk, store up those nasty vuln maces and join Watcher. The moment your pet bashes, cleave and spam bodyslam... easy cp's.
A little bit of a change.
You have to be path of fury - chance has been akin the same chance as an exotic mastery warrior disarming a no-disarm weapon.
Service burn-proofing has been set up as a duration instead of permanent, as well.
Because when I make a character, I come up with what I feel is an awesome RP idea, then mold the Character around a backstory. I assure you any competant PKer kills that watcher pet first.
This does not make a zerk the strongest combo possible, it simply means people are going to have to fight smarter, and evolve in their tactics. You do realize there are weapons you cannot cleave right? You also realize that if I miss a cleave, your free to do most anything? Zerks do not get blind fighting. Meaning I have a hard time landing alot of skills, and melee strikes, blind.
With the change to burnproof for items I propose we have a timer at the bottom of the weapon examine kind of like signature, but it tells the owner how long before it fades.
Nah. Things are more fun without a timer on this. Though it would be nice if this cleave change was reflected in the help files for the fury zerks somewhere.
Does this go into account for shields too? Its an awesome idea that it doesnt destroy the weapons, just breaks them until repaired at the repair shop. +500 for the idea.