So the minotaur has an easy time with mages while a much tougher time against giant melees. Its a give and take situation.
Strength of Minotaurs vs mage and melee
You are treating this as if it is equal. the current overpowering advantage that Minotaur's have over casters and communers far exceeds any limitation they would experience vs giant melees.
A Minotaur warrior shuts a caster down, completely. Spell is cast, flee, return, charge. Leaving the caster with only the option to recall to escape in most cases.
So the minotaur has an easy time with mages while a much tougher time against giant melees. Its a give and take situation.
No no, you are twisting things again.
Minotaurs have a "win button" against mages, and a very very slightly tougher time against melees, which if the warrior is smart, can be turned into an advantage. You know that pretty well, so continuing to pretend it's not like that is stupid.
A minotaur in gladiator is going to trump 99% of the warrior combos anyway, and a fire giant wielding a fire can will trump 100% of the melees.
The problem is that, the said fire giant will have troubles with every mage class possible especially with invokers, and the said minotaur will have no troubles at all with ANY mages.
And how many mages kill those FG/Ogre counterparts with ridiculous ease compared to the charging mino?
I'm not sure what your goal here is? But it doesn't make sense to me that you'd single out one thing I said. If you're saying they have a huge success rate vs mages and that's all that matters than I'd say I don't think classes in the game should be looked at so one subjectively. My goal is to look at the overall success of this race. I'm in agreement they are too powerful vs mages and if changes are made will become even more underpowered vs melees. I don't want to see them become the Healer or Druid class of FL or how DK's used to be for awhile until very recently (being highly underplayed).
Now again I'd like someone to seriously answer my question about listing FG/Ogre **overall **success to Minos. I'm quite interested in the answers myself.
My point is you can't compare them like that. Numbers don't = success. How many minotaurs have been rolled compared to Ogre/FGs? Now, how many of those rolled out of each were successful?
If that's what you're getting at, then we agree. But if you are insinuating that numbers = success, then that is just plain wrong. The only time a boost of a race occurs is when someone else makes a successful one. IE: Werebeasts and Kadrinath.
TONS were rolled and most sucked.
EDIT: But, that's just taking away from the thread. We ALL know Minotaurs are overpowered vs mages with that charge. The only people that are defending it are those that favor the race and don't want to see their favorites nerfed a bit. That's the ONLY reason this is being discussed so heavily.
Boy, why can't people be honest? I am good with BLMs and I've said many times they are OP. I've made threads on prayer on how to balance them.
Why do the people who have played strong mino warriors refuse to admit that the charge is broken? After all, you are the ones who have abused it most, you know perfectly well how strong it is...
To anyone saying that Minor are worse than Ogres/Gigants vs meeles.
What about about every other warrior race with non giant size?
What about Humans.
What about Half-Elf Warriors.
What about Gnome Warriors.
What about Halfling warriors who recently got a Vuln.
What about Elves and Drows with their 18 STR and only Autosneak for use.
The only ones worth playing are Dwarves, Duergars and Ferals.
Because you know, why be a medium sized human when you can be a mino with giant size, no vuln, 103% Axes, dual wield 2 2h axes, charge with ANY weapon, always charge to lag and a lot better stats.
STR: 23 INT: 17 WIS: 18 DEX: 17 CON: 22
Why even be demon, if you ask me...
PS. You know you're argument lacks when you get owned by Mya.
My point is you can't compare them like that. Numbers don't = success. How many minotaurs have been rolled compared to Ogre/FGs? Now, how many of those rolled out of each were successful?
If that's what you're getting at, then we agree. But if you are insinuating that numbers = success, then that is just plain wrong. The only time a boost of a race occurs is when someone else makes a successful one. IE: Werebeasts and Kadrinath.
TONS were rolled and most sucked.
EDIT: But, that's just taking away from the thread.
Didn't think I was insinuating anything like that. If you read my posts you'd probably notice my many points of view upon the subject.
However I'd like to start with that list as a **starting **point for comparisons (not the if and be all to end all arguments). And if you don't see the importance in that than I'm afraid we'll have to disagree there. You mentioned other factors to take in which I again also fully agree with. I just don't understand how you can suggest scrutinizing some factors but overlook others (when they all seem to be important criteria before making any changes to such a complicated and meaningful pk atmosphere).
Oh and to the rest. I've probably played each of the three races equally. I may have played one of the most successful Minotaurs , so to some of you out there, that somehow means I'm biased in favor of them :confused: . Even though I agree that the Charge tactic is overpowering to some mage classes.
I've never understood why we don't just treat mino charge like paladin mounted charge - allow it once a tick. Charge more, and those don't have the bonuses - bonuses being for paladins extra damage and target lag, for Minos extra attacks and target lag.
Application to Immortal
Application subject Alignment change: Good/Adventurer Remort: Paladin
...
How about minotaurs cannot charge while mounted 
Ok, here is my idea - instead of no timer, the charge will have a 1 tick timer, but the minotaur himself will experience only 1 round of lag, so basically, he will be able to charge and then dirt next tick.
Thoughts?
Im not a fan lol. Pallet charge was changed because it was too easy to charge flee people to death. Why can minds do it with higher offensive output
Ok, here is my idea - instead of no timer, the charge will have a 1 tick timer, but the minotaur himself will experience only 1 round of lag, so basically, he will be able to charge and then dirt next tick.
Thoughts?
After all these threads of complaints we finally have pretty decent suggestion.
Foxx's change seems less overpowering vs mages and more strategic overall but I don't think it does as much against there uphill battles vs giant melees (with the exception of zerk/ranger). How about allowing this newly weakened yet strategic special charge to bypass counter? With it they can get the first attack and perhaps be the first the control the battle (by being the first to initiate a warrior lore or cabal skill), at least until there giant counterparts start using there innate abilities to take control of the battle themselves (i.e. superior stats, regen, physical resistance, fiery bashes).
Classes affected would be warrior, paladin, blademaster, monk, crusader
Though it would do nothing against zerks, rangers.
However I don't see a great need to power them up vs Paladin, Blademaster, or Monk. So my idea isn't the greatest. I'd very much would like to hear other **constructive **ideas.
Seems reasonable to me.
Minotaurs in no way, shape or form have something which stops them from charging whether it be a timer or something else (mechanic wise). Spells on the other hand, like some do should stop the charge. What bull do you know of that does something other than charging? As I stated before. Let the charge lag ONCE per round (the only timer), but the minotaur will be able to charge over and over and over. And perhaps let the ONE charge that LAGS, LAG for ONLY 2 hours, as NORMAL. That way the minotaur gets the ability to lag you once a tick with charge with the ability to remain able to charge repeatedly.
I didn't understand much from what you said, but you basically suggest that there should be a 0 timer for the charge?
Is that right?
He said to change it to be like Paladins.
Only the first charge lags, but he can keep charging for damage.
This is what should had happened all those years ago when warriors were opened to Minotaurs.
but I don't think it does as much against there uphill battles vs giant melees Do I need to post again all the warrior races that have to fight the same giant meeles with none of the Minotaurs other perks?
Do I need to post again all the warrior races that have to fight the same giant meeles with none of the Minotaurs other perks?
Hey Mya,
I think these same races you're referring to are made to excel in there other respective classes. I.E. Dwarven Clerics, Slith Thieves/Blademasters, Halfling Healers, Feral Ninjas, etc. These are just some examples where they are more tailored to be played.
These races are rarely combined with the warrior/zerk class. Should they be? That's a question for another argument entirely.
The Minotaur are hardly played as is. If any change to charge goes through without respecting there strength vs melees, you'd be pretty much making them a dead race. One that I certainly wouldn't ever touch again. Have you ever even played a Minotaur? Have you played a successful one? Tested it against melees and mages? Have you had to fight against them as melee or mage? Do you hate them? Never want to see them again? What exactly is your goal in this argument?