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Lloth's Fantastically Dumb Class Update Ideas, Chapter Three: Thieves

Thieves are like your Grandma. Old. Not very exciting. Probably racist. And the more time you spend with them, the more you remember why you stopped doing that. How about we fix that? 

Problems:

For starters, steal and pry are annoying af to play against. Why should we reward a class for being afk in the bathroom pinching of a deuce for so long a fresh set of players are online with no knowledge of the thief's presence, and then coming back and landing one skill and having cursory knowledge of item IDs (in a world where all of that information is very publicly available, at that). That's dumb. That's frustrating gameplay. Amputate these skills before the rot spreads and the whole class is genuinely experience-killi--oh, wait, that's why we're here in the first place. Right... Anyway. Remove steal, pilfer and pry. Counterfeit and plant, too. This also means peak has no use.

Next: Traps. Why do they have so many when there's only a handful of useful ones? And you can only have a few up at a time, so you can't even afford to use some of them as mind games. 

      Alarm - Pointless. Why waste a trap to get a where command? Yeah, sure, it works even if the thief can't see the person who triggers it.... but who cares?

      Simple - Pointless.  Enemy sees it and disarms it while the thief is hidden in the room? Okay... who cares? It's a small amount of lag and they will just reset if the thief throws down the hurt. And if they just run past it and trigger it, it's a fairly low damage trap.

      Chestbuster - Lots and lots of damage. Useful trap. Kinda boring.

      Brambus Needler - Re-arming trap. Can't really compete with Chestbuster burst, and thieves are not built for long fights. Usefulness depends on location and how devoted the victim is to running around in circles over the same direction.

      Webcaster - Oh hey, they got webbed, so cool... now what? "So glad I gave up Chestbuster for this!" - Nobody, ever.

      Devil Wheel - The infamous "LAWL THIS THIFE NEWB XDXD" trap. I'm sure it has a niche use, but who picks a mechanism for the niche use?

      Poison Needle - Hey you know that class that can already poison their thrown weapons? Why don't they also get a trap... that poisons! So useful. Except the opposite of that.

      Enfeebler  - Remember when enfeeble was good? ... next. Like all the traps that don't do much burst damage, this one is pretty bad by virtue of not helping the thief close out a fight.

      Fireseed - Pretty cool thematically. Not useful practically. 

      Snares - Easily spotted traps are fun, guys. I promise. gets 2756389183 PKs on thieves

      Runes - Why are you not playing an invoker, if casting spells is your jam? None of these are too useful, as they are pretty easily saved.

      Eyedust - Neat, the class with dirt kick can get a trap that blinds. What a dynamic and interesting trap decision. /sarcasm

      Amnesia Charm - Hey, you know those 2 pet classes? How would you like a trap that gets rid of their pets, but only when it works, which is rare for at least one of those classes, and even if it does land, it does nothing else and they just high-tail it out of there. Crap.

      Blackspore - Ever wanted to die setting up a trap? Well then, here's the trap for you. 50% of the time, it works every time--ohtheyarepoisonresistandthistrapisawfulwhatareyoudoingwithyourlife

      Antimagic - Because everyone loves dispel magic. Useful because dispel magic is cheese. Doesn't help the "feelsbadman.jpg" that is playing against a thief.

This whole system needs a three facelifts, a manipedi, and years worth of reconstructive surgery to be even remotely attractive. Choices are meant to be rewarding, not punishing. They're meant to give you freedom, not a cage you can't stray outside of without being worse off.

Thieves have 47 practicable skills. If we take out the 6 mentioned above, that's 36 (not counting preserve). They need some variety. Some new identity. A roll to fill that hasn't already been filled. "How can we do that, Lloth, when we already have a bajillion melee classes, and even another sneaky light-melee class?" I hear you asking that. You know who you are. Well. Here's your answer: Give them things to do that no other class can, while sticking to the rogue-ish theme of acrobatics, sleight of hand, and deception. And redoing traps. Duh. Easy answer. 

New basic thief skills:

Level            Skill

1                      dagger, spear, mace, sword, backstab, dodge, haggle, hide, scrolls, preserve*

2                      defuse

3                      dirt kicking

4                      sneak

7                      parry, pick lock

10                    detect hidden, circle

12                    disarm, second attack

14                    kick

15                    hand to hand, trip, meditation

16                    fast healing

17                    throw, edge craft

18                    lore

20                    blackjack, gag

22                    dual wield

23                    enhanced damage

25                    third attack, disguise

30                    dual backstab

35                    envenom

37                    doublesheath

38                    cutpurse

Solution:

Give thieves a few selectable paths to choose from, starting at level 10. The path they choose will unlock further abilities down the line, while disabling other abilities. This is reflective of their focus on a single art of the guild's varied disciplines. Though, at level 50 they can gain access to a small amount of basic class skills they are otherwise denied by their specialty.

Shadow: Relies on obfuscation, deception, and cunning to surprise their victims and overwhelm them quickly. Excellent in burst damage situations, but looses steam quickly.

Demolitionist: Uses traps, mines, and mechanisms to devastate their victims. Low damage on their own, and incredibly poor defense, but excel at slaughtering their victims from a great distance without their victims ever knowing they were being targeted. 

Trickster: Highly agile combatants that use their nimble forms and keen reflexes to dart around the battlefield, easily evading deadly blows and striking precise blows on their victims' most vital areas. They are extremely defensive due to their almost supernatural agility, however their arts seldom mesh with the arts of predation and subterfuge.

Mastermind: Convinces others to do the dirty work. Controls a variety of mobs from a pool of available "hires" to do their bidding. Superb survivability due to rarely being in direct combat, unless found, however their reliance on weaker subordinates means they struggle to quickly and efficiently silence their victims... permanently.

Alchemist: Very adept at using potions, herbs, and poisons, but are often poor swordsman, as their dedication to their craft leaves little time for rigorous training. What they lack in physical prowess, though, they make up for with their wide and varied use of substances, both beneficial and malign, to wear down their victims and destroy them from the inside out.

At level 50 you may choose to relearn 1 skill you have given up in order to pursue your specialty.

- Shadow -

      Lost skills: envenom, gag, disguise, trip, cutpurse, scrolls

      Gained skills:

Shadowmark: Places a mark on the victim. This mark reveals the victim to you for as long as they bear it, even if you could not otherwise see them (the shadows never betray you). Small mana upkeep. Lasts a 24 hours. Level 15.

Fan of Knives: Deals damage to everyone else in the room. Level 20.

Trance: Level 25

Nightblade: Passive ability that increases backstab and dual backstab damage by 50% if the Shadow is hidden from the victim's sight when performed, so long as the shadow has enough mana. Level 30.

Shadowstep: Passive ability that allows the thief to immediately hide after fleeing a battle. There is a short period of time after accomplishing this feat where the Shadow is unable to do so again (5 ticks), Level 35.

Shadowblades: For the next 4 ticks, your attacks have the chance to deal extra shadow damage. Drains your mana each time it happens, and thus will not happen if you do not have enough mana. Level 40.

Shadowstrike: Passive skill that lets you periodically deal shadow damage to your victim when you dodge, by disappearing and reappearing behind your victim. Requires you to be affected by Shadowblades. Drains your mana each time it happens, and thus will not happen if you do not have enough mana. Level 45.

Vicious Strikes: Your next ability after leaving stealth deals 20% increased damage, and increases all damage taken by the victim by another 10% for the next 2 ticks. Must be stealthed to use, does not break stealth, and has a 24 tick cooldown. Large mana upkeep. Level 50.

 

 

- Demolitionist-

      Lost skills: backstab, dual backstab, envenom, Parry, third attack, hide

      Gained skills:

Mines: Allows the selection of mines from the following list, starting at level 15, and giving another selection at 20 and a third at 25. Mines are placed in rooms, not on objects or exits.

Blast Mine: Casts thunderclap

Flashbang: Casts Flashfire

Flamethrower: Casts Flamestrike

Sundering Mine: Casts Earthquake - Twice

Frost Mine: Casts Iceball

Traps: Allows the selection of traps from the following list, starting at level 30, and giving another selection at 35, and a third at 40. 

Zapwire: Electrocutes the victim. Can cause them to lose nerve responsiveness, thus making them think they are in better shape than they are. Can be placed on exits or on objects.

Clusterbomb: Chains together a large number of incredibly small explosives that each deal a small amount of damage to the victim in rapid succession. Can be placed only on rooms

Firestarter: Sprays the victim with a highly volatile liquid that ignites when exposed to the air. Burns quickly, fiercely, and painfully. The victim takes damage over the next 3 ticks. Can be placed on exits or on objects.

Spikes: Retracted spikes spring upwards, impaling the victim and causing severe wounding (damage taken when moving) and causing them to bleed. Can be placed on exits or on rooms.

Anchornetting: Barbed net that snatches up the victim before throwing them to the ground. Adds an air thrash effect. Can be placed on exits or on rooms.

Mechanisms: Allows the selection of mechanisms from the following list, starting at level 45, and giving another selection at 50. Can only be placed on exits.

Chestbuster: As is.

Brambus Needler: As is.

Lightning Coil: Call lightning, basically.

Acid Jet: Deluge of water, then acid blast

- Trickster-

      Lost skills: backstab, scrolls, hide, sneak, blackjack, gag

      Gained skills:

Evasion: Lag avoidance, similar to avian racial and nimble perk. Level 15.

Acrobatics: Dodge cap increased to 115%, +5 dodge. Level 20.

Precise strike: Attacks an internal organs of the victim, applying a random effect from the following list. Level 25.

      Weaken

      Poison

      Enfeeble

      Wounding

      Bleeding

Flourish: Chance to throw edged weapons on performing a dodge, maximum once per two pules. Level 30.

Reflexes: Can dodge arrows, thrown objects, and certain afflictive spells (flame arrow, icicle, lightning bolt). 25% chance. Level 35.

Afterimage: Basically blur. Level 40

Perfect Cadence: Reduces penalty to dodge while blinded by half. Each time the trickster dodges while blind, they lose a small amount of mana. Level 45.

Death Defied: Chance when a fatal blow is struck for the trickster to slip through the enemy's attack and escape in a random direction. If  that direction is not a viable exit, the skill fails to move the thief, but does set them to 1hp (instead of death) and causes the rest of the incoming attacks in that combat pulse to miss. Any damage taken from spells after this effect triggers, or attacks made in the next combat pulse, will kill the thief, as normal. Upon successfully escaping, the thief will be weakened for 6 ticks, in which time this ability cannot be triggered again. Additionally, this skill has a sizeable mana cost, and will fail if the thief does not have enough mana.

- Mastermind-

      Lost skills: backstab, dual backstab, third attack, enhanced damage, throw, edge craft

      Gained skills:

Lackeys: This version of the thief is more like a mob boss than a thief of their own. They have lackeys, which do a majority of the muscle work. There are 4 types of lackies, and the mastermind can hire up to 4 lackeys at level 50. The first lackey is gained at level 20. Additional lackeys are gained at level 30, 40, and 50. Unlike other pet classes, the mastermind can select as many of one type of lackey as they want. 

Lackey Pool: Though the mastermind can only control up to 4 lackeys at level 50, these lackeys are recruited from a pool. This pool mazes out at level/10 + 2 lackeys (7 at level 50). You cannot choose what lackeys become available to the pool. Each slot is filled with a lackey of a random type. However, when a lackey dies, you may choose what lackey to hire from your pool. That lackey joins your group, and that slot is then re-opened in the pool. I imagine I will have to explain this many times over in either discord or the replies (if anyone even reads this far). So I'll just wait until then.

      Bodyguard: Tough. Defends the mastermind if the mastermind is nearby. Doesn't deal as much damage as other lackeys, though. Only attacks once, as it spends most of its time protecting the mastermind, or other lackeys if the mastermind is not present.

      Thug: Brutally violent, but not very quick or smart. Hit like a freight train on steroids... if they can land a blow.

      Catspaw: Quick, but not very strong. Has many small damage attacks. Periodically poisons, wounds, and causes bleeding. 

      Tithe Collector: a corrupt acolyte, used to collect money for the mastermind. Also periodically casts buffs (armor, shield, bless, frenzy) on full health allies (always the mastermind if present), healing low health allies (always the mastermind if present and at all injured, and as cure serious). 

Underboss: At level 25, the mastermind can choose one lackey to be the Underboss. The Underboss has increased health, damage, and armor, and skills.

      Bodyguard: Gets rescue, second attack, and bash.

      Thug: Gets berserk, bodyslam, and is large.

      Catspaw: Gets Fourth Attack, increased chance of poison/wounding/bleeding

      Tithe Collection: healing spell upgraded to cure critical. Also gains access to curse and sanctuary.

Safehouse: At level 35, the mastermind can designate a specific indoor room in a non-lawful area as a safehouse. While the safehouse is declared, the mastermind cannot move, but can eat/drink and hide. During this time, the mastermind's Underboss is controlled by the player, and the rest of the mastermind's lackeys follow the Underboss. The mastermind will not gain experience from kills while in the safehouse.

Silver Tongue: Functions like extort, but also allows the mastermind to purchase from shops even while outlawed. Level 45.

 

- Alchemist-

      Lost skills: Cutpurse, Enhanced Damage, Blackjack, gag, backstab, dual backstab

      Gained Skills: 

Healing Salves: Apply a healing salve, which restores a moderate amount of health. Once per tick. Level 15.

Toxin Mastery: Chance to poison with all sources is increased by 15%, and damage dealt with poisons increased by 1-3 damage. Level 20

Experimental Compound: Victims you successfully poison become vulnerable to poison. Level 25

Toxic Delivery: If the victim is already poisoned, there is a small chance that you will poison them a second time with a different agent, increasing the duration of the poison and applying a new "stack" of poison as a secondary effect. This basically functions like an additional poison, and thus the victim will take two instances of poison damage. Stacks up to 5 times, with a maximum duration of 16 ticks. Level 30

Numbing Poison: Your poisons reduce proficiency in all of the victim's offensive melee skills by 2% for each poison applied. Level 30

Neurotoxin: Your poisons reduce proficiency in all of the victim's spells by 2% for each poison applied. Level 40

Leeching Poison: Your poisons heal you for half of the damage they do. Level 45

Brew: Level 50

Man this is a cool ass idea

I definitely need to read through this more thoroughly, but at a glance I like the direction and support any revamp for how thief operates.  Lots of great ideas in here.

One replacement I had thought of for steal/pry:

Sabotage:  "Trap" but for equipment.  Each round it has a chance to go off (or some other triggers), with various effects and/or breaking the equipment - but, repairable.  For primary weapon/shield it could be more dramatic in effect.

I been playing Darkest dungeon and the Grave Robber class is very interesting and gave me several ideas.

First, I would like to say I dislike destroying things. And the old thieves should remain somewhere but very inaccessible, like a Quest thing or Qselections.

I also am proposing this idea considering that the Blackjack/Steal game is going to be fazed out.

Anyway, Grave Robber has a mechanic where he moves around the battle field, moving back and forth to be a back rower or a tanker. In the age or rescue and Necro rescue, I think thieves should be the kings of positional battles. Specially since they have circle which they can never use. I also think they should have access to debuffs, like Shamans and Blademasters. So let me present some interesting skills.

Fade/Cover: This skill allows the thief to move back, or to the front of battle. Fade X would allow you move the X target to the front so that he is the active char tanking. It's like a forced rescue that can work on anyone who is engaged with your target. Since thieves don't have pets, this would really shine in Hunting and Cabal Warfare/Sliths. The lag should be just 1 round, because thieves should be super responsive if they are ever going to beat a melee. I think this should also work blinded, but you can't designate the target. So that you can move back when the warrior dirts and land a circle. Cover , would move the thief to the front being the active tank, even if he is dirted, perhaps this should also land some minor damage. The idea is to make the battles dynamic with the thief having a reason to fade to the back row and then to cover to the front row. And super dinamic like Onslaught who is only 1 round lag. I also think they should be able to retarget to a necro from behind his zombie army of rescue, while blind.

Debufs- Thieves already have throw/envenenom but I think this should be expanded. Thieves should have a skill that when engaged allow them to Plague, BLM style. In my opinion it should be a blowgun/darts, where you blow a dart at their choice at their oponent and they get an unsavable minor duration debuf like:

  • Plague for 3 hours

  • Higher grade Poison for 3 hours

  • Insomnia for 3 hours (escape, specially if you time it with your poison to drop poison on the insomnia hour)

Blind. I think thieves should have a restrung dirt kick. I prefered some kind of dust of flash like blinding light. But the sand pocket idea is nice.

Maybe even have 2-3 blinding techniques, each for a different location/terrain.

Critical strikes as debufs - I think thieves should have access to strikes that would allow them to debuf stats based on location like:

Thigh - Thief stabs your thigh (leg) and you suffer -6 dex.

Bicep - Thief stabs your bicep (arm) and you suffer -6 str.

Nose - Thief slams your nose hard and you suffer -10 CON (vs Undead regen)

Temple - Thief hits your temple, and you suffer -10 WIS.

Ear - Thief hits your ear creating a splinting headache and your usffer -6 INT.

Since stat boosting EQ is harder now, this could be very interesting.

On 1/3/2021 at 2:06 PM, mya said:

In the age or rescue and Necro rescue, I think thieves should be the kings of positional battles. Specially since they have circle which they can never use.

Thieves have four cabal choices and one selectable race that allows them to use circle.  Just sayin.

  1. Knight.

  2. Tribunal.

  3. Nexus.

  4. Syndicate.

  5. Warmaster.

  6. Hertald.

  7. Church.

  8. Watcher.

All of them gives some bonuses to them.

Just sayin.