PK range

Just now, Iznazti said:

I fight everyone.  I go after my enemies.  I do my best.  I play bad characters and die all the time.  I can also roll 3 classes and do very well.  Doesn't matter if I have a horse in the race.  Whats the name of this place we are in ohhhhh yeahhhhhh IDEAS and SUGGESTIONS.  I made one.  I said lets talk about it.  2 of you have decided to just disagree with out saying how your way IMPROVES the GAME.  You've just said NO because this is the way we've always done it.

 

You want to take my idea and take a dump on it?  So be it.  Give me reasons why you woudn't do it.  What you think the pros and cons are.  How about we try that.

Dude, just because you don't like the justifications doesn't mean they aren't justifications. I gave a very extensive explanation of the ways I thought this would have a negative impact based on all the other ways the game is designed, you just didn't read or ignored most of them. 🤷‍♂️

1 minute ago, EllaThePuppy said:

 you just didn't read or ignored most of them.

all you said was it would be very hard to implement.  That was it.  So because it may be hard we shouldn't talk about it?  I had an idea.  I thought Hey I notice that (THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE)  Ragnomar never fights Zergedelt how can we make it so these two might want to fight each other.  Maybe we introduce a Tier system where people can jump through.  Rank it.   THERE is a leader board.  How about we talk about the actual idea and why it wouldn't work.

5 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

I fight everyone.  I go after my enemies.  I do my best.  I play bad characters and die all the time.  I can also roll 3 classes and do very well.  Doesn't matter if I have a horse in the race.  Whats the name of this place we are in ohhhhh yeahhhhhh IDEAS and SUGGESTIONS.  I made one.  I said lets talk about it.  2 of you have decided to just disagree with out saying how your way IMPROVES the GAME.  You've just said NO because this is the way we've always done it.

You want to take my idea and take a dump on it?  So be it.  Give me reasons why you woudn't do it.  What you think the pros and cons are.  How about we try that.

We are discussing it. Ella in a particularly even handed way. You are always going to get people who disagree with you. 

IF you cannot continue this discussion in a mature fashion  - you will be removed from it. 

No one is dumping on your idea. We're working through it.

2 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

I thought Hey I notice that (THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE)  Ragnomar never fights Zergedelt how can we make it so these two might want to fight each other.

But why should they fight each other?

37 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

I'm sorry but placing bounties just for placing them seems like shitty RP to me.  This is an RP mud right?  We should be placing bounties for VALID reasons, not just because.

Is it a valid reason if I say my religion is chaos? And these deaths bring chaos? Therefore I can bounty anyone?

1 hour ago, EllaThePuppy said:

I disagree that it's cowardice unequivocally, and don't think it's fair to make sweeping generalizations. Let me give you an example:

I got in "trouble" (not real trouble, but rebuked in a jabbing way and feel like I would have been in actual trouble if I kept doing it) with Killian for allowing players into Syndicate without proving themselves in combat. This is not a dig at my cabal imm, who I think does an excellent job at embodying the spirit of the underworld crime organization. But as a player, my goal as a cabal elder is to make sure that people get into my cabal and enjoy their time there.

Now, let's look at the flip side and what Syndicate/Nexus are "supposed to be". Right off the bat, you HAVE to get a kill (per the thread on the forum with cabal entrance requirements) to be allowed entry. Now, I know this is not the case, but let's keep that in mind as an example.

Next, we've got qclasses and qraces (with the exception of Psionicist). All of those require a kill. Assuming we're talking about L50, that's gonna be your Liches and your Crusaders.

Then finally we've got classes that require kills to be successful. Dark-knights and crusaders can be successful without kills but will never reach their power peak and, in many cases, will never kill their toughest enemies and/or hard banes. Liches require kills to power up. Evil clerics require kills to power up. Barbarians require kills to power up.

And lastly, you've got gear. Sometimes bad PKers get taken cool places and wind up with good gear. Sometimes that Gear is exceptionally rare. Sometimes it's just really good and desirable.

So what's the result here? Something like 30-40% (conservatively) of available combos are going to require AT LEAST one kill to be successful. Am I likely to get that kill against a Ragnomar, a Zergedelt, a Lecitus - or going back in time, a Thulgan, a Kurvikhel, an Azun, a Martineius?

Hell. No.

So sorry not sorry, if I need kills for whatever I'm doing, yes I'm going to charge head on at the easy meat. I would be absolutely stupid not to. And you bet your ass I'm going to run and hide from the big boys. I might engage occasionally. I might have little skirmishes here and there, probing for weakness. But especially if they kill me pretty effortlessly (because of a bad combo match-up or maybe just because I suck), I'm definitely going to do everything I can to NOT fight them. And I don't think that makes someone a coward. That just makes them smart.

DISCLAIMER: The one caveat I will add here is that blatant, aggressive multi-killing for no apparent reason besides the fact that you can? I don't personally know anyone that gets their rocks off on that, but that's something I'd chat with the IMMs about. Even if the person isn't going to be punished directly for those actions, they might get asked to stop, nudged in the other direction, pushed/instigated toward killing stronger opponents, have their promotions slowrolled until they get their act together, etc. But I have only seen one instance of truly pointless multi-killing that was having a negative impact on a player's desire to log into the game since my return a few months ago.

@Iznazti

This is the post I'm referring to that went largely unmentioned. It's not a question of being hard to implement. It's a question of fundamentally changing a LARGE amount of other game mechanics to coincide with a proposed tiered PK system that would be challenging to implement even without all these other considerations.

Yeah this is getting nowhere. Shape it up. Make a point, move on. Not everyone is going to agree. If they don't, respect it and carry on. Everyone's opinion is valid.

2 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

But why should they fight each other?

If we put up a Pk Top tier maybe they might find a reason to RP a reason to PK each other.  Spice things up.

3 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

If we put up a Pk Top tier maybe they might find a reason to RP a reason to PK each other.  Spice things up.

But why?! They could fight each other right now.  I bet if Ragnomar broke the law Zerg would be fighting them. But Ragnomar doesn't so what reason would they have to fight? 

They both follow the same religion - isn't Ragnomar a priest of that religion? A servant to the same God? 

Why would they suddenly fight? For some OOC tag that says they are 'king of the hill'?

Unfortunately, I think the crux of why this idea isn't viable is because my going from being the "best" player in the lower tier to the "worst" player in the upper tier is only going to frustrate me faster if I can't kill the lower tier folks for the gear/path of deceit points/malform feeds/sacred blade levels/Barbarian trophies/lich brownie points that I need to be successful.

So right off the bat, we've alienated anyone that wants to play an evil cleric, a DK, a crusader, a lich, and any combo of Barbarian. We've also alienated anyone that wants to play a combo that's dependent on gear to be successful, because there would be nothing (by the sound of it anyway) preventing lower tier folks from collecting and hoarding equipment. We already have a substantial problem with rare circulation because you crazy people roll up a new alt every day, it seems like. 😜Making it so your Alt-A-Day(tm) can't be killed for their gear by anyone that's been around long to have a few PKs under their belt seems a little outlandish to me.

So you asked for discussion of this idea and/or anything that goes against the status quo. The problem is, I don't see this being broken right now, therefore I don't see much of a reason to cut against the grain just for the sake of doing so. I'm not going to make an alternative suggestion, because I think the hard-coded elements of the system, such as they are, are fine.

In short... if you genuinely feel that there's an issue, it sounds to me like maybe you should focus on evaluating the culture rather than the code.

Okay this is what I am trying to say.  I notice that when I've had strong characters in the past I personally do not go after the weak ones, so this has nothing to do with that.  Now lets say I'm playing a pretty decked character.  Half the time I am sitting in my cabal doing nothing really, writing notes and just relaxing.  Me personally I don't tend to bottom feed ever.  I get there are classes that must do this, but as far as I'm concerned these classes reach a strong power peak when they get there kills.  Getting them should be difficult.  You shouldn't be able to just sit and bottom feed to lets say get your powers up.

If there is a Tier system You are

A. Rising up through the ranks as you pkill improving your standing and putting yourself in a higher bracket allowing the heavy hitters to get you.  I'm sorry but cheesing your "Needed pkills are lame."  Yes Ella you mentioned that if you needed kills you'd do whatever to get it.  No one is stopping you from getting these EASY kills this way because you start at level 1, but you can't do it forever.

Newer players will still be getting attacked and learning in the Level 1 but wont have the PK knowledge to move up until they try.  This also gives people time to try and get dressed instead of getting pkilled at fresh 50.  Just because we've done things this way all along does not mean we have to continue to do it this way.  Theyre may be a better way.  I'm sorry but the learning curve for anyone who hasn't played for 10 years or longer is huge.  They're so many things to learn and getting facerolled wont have them stay long.  Its that simple.  No on likes DYING.

Now In the Tiers there are Ranks, so Tier one lets say goes to +5 PKs.  Once your at +5pk your in the Medium range.  Now this is where most people will be It works off a + - ration.  To get out of this Tier you need to go to +15  Now you're in the Top tier.  Remember anyone under you can still attack you with only The MURDER command.  This way thiefs and ninjas aren't just strangling unready opponents.  In the Top tier there is the Leader board to get to the top of it IT FORCES THE BIG DOGS TO FIGHT Each other to stay on top, or wait for new players to come.  Now people in the Medium tier are going to try and kill the big dogs.  If your in the Medium tier and lets say You're cabal enemy is on and he is a Big DOG, you should still be trying to attack the big dog and this is where your cabal immortal comes in.  Really it just offers protection for those of that are learning anything.  There is a small buffer where you don't feel like complete shit.

Me personally I would want to be on the TOP of that leaderboard and do what I could to get there.  Lets say I was in the Medium tier, I'd want to get out of there and jump with the big dogs.  Lets say I'm new.  I have time to actually sit down try and make friends, and learn the game without being DESTROYED.  Now don't get me wrong this will still happen, as a vet might roll a new character, but now this new player can try things and PKill when he feel comfortable and jump out of the gutter.

6 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

Remember anyone under you can still attack you with only The MURDER command.  This way thiefs and ninjas aren't just strangling unready opponents.

Nope - not great idea.

7 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

the Top tier there is the Leader board to get to the top of it IT FORCES THE BIG DOGS TO FIGHT Each other to stay on top, or wait for new players to come.

You assume everyone wants to be on top? What if they don't? Still no combat between zerg and ragnomar? 

7 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

Me personally I would want to be on the TOP of that leaderboard and do what I could to get there.

Why?

You have any issue with the fact that this system will discount 90% of the PKable player base for the 'top tier' players? So that they are just stuck doing sweet 'f' all the entire time? That doesn't sound particularly engaging.

@EllaThePuppy Sorry if I came off as aggressive.  It was not my intention.  I am far from angry should have used Italics instead of caps.

1 hour ago, Iznazti said:

Okay this is what I am trying to say.  I notice that when I've had strong characters in the past I personally do not go after the weak ones, so this has nothing to do with that.  Now lets say I'm playing a pretty decked character.  Half the time I am sitting in my cabal doing nothing really, writing notes and just relaxing.  Me personally I don't tend to bottom feed ever.  I get there are classes that must do this, but as far as I'm concerned these classes reach a strong power peak when they get there kills.  Getting them should be difficult.  You shouldn't be able to just sit and bottom feed to lets say get your powers up.

There is a problem with this.  Keep in mind that a dark-knight with a full malform and decked is NOT stronger than a warrior equally decked.  They are about equal.  What this means is anyone without a full malform on a dark-knight will be fighting an uphill battle.

If there is a Tier system You are

A. Rising up through the ranks as you pkill improving your standing and putting yourself in a higher bracket allowing the heavy hitters to get you.  I'm sorry but cheesing your "Needed pkills are lame."  Yes Ella you mentioned that if you needed kills you'd do whatever to get it.  No one is stopping you from getting these EASY kills this way because you start at level 1, but you can't do it forever.

Newer players will still be getting attacked and learning in the Level 1 but wont have the PK knowledge to move up until they try.  This also gives people time to try and get dressed instead of getting pkilled at fresh 50.  Just because we've done things this way all along does not mean we have to continue to do it this way.  Theyre may be a better way.  I'm sorry but the learning curve for anyone who hasn't played for 10 years or longer is huge.  They're so many things to learn and getting facerolled wont have them stay long.  Its that simple.  No on likes DYING.

**There is a major problem with what you are suggesting.  Because of rare and unique items and the current way they are distributed, this might mean a certain tier is completely barred from getting the items.  Imagine someone has the mask of ultimate evil, ring of abyss, three soul tears, the nimbus and the solar grasp.  Now, they are in tier 1.  The top tier CANNOT kill them to get this gear.  **

1 hour ago, Iznazti said:

Now In the Tiers there are Ranks, so Tier one lets say goes to +5 PKs.  Once your at +5pk your in the Medium range.  Now this is where most people will be It works off a + - ration.  To get out of this Tier you need to go to +15  Now you're in the Top tier.  Remember anyone under you can still attack you with only The MURDER command.  This way thiefs and ninjas aren't just strangling unready opponents.  In the Top tier there is the Leader board to get to the top of it IT FORCES THE BIG DOGS TO FIGHT Each other to stay on top, or wait for new players to come.  Now people in the Medium tier are going to try and kill the big dogs.  If your in the Medium tier and lets say You're cabal enemy is on and he is a Big DOG, you should still be trying to attack the big dog and this is where your cabal immortal comes in.  Really it just offers protection for those of that are learning anything.  There is a small buffer where you don't feel like complete shit.

The murder command as the only opener against the upper tier is bad because that means every caster and communer must open with melee.  If the TOP dogs are melee themselves, it is likely they will have counter.  Good luck in those fights if you can only open with murder.  If you concern is thieves and ninjas, the top dogs already know how to avoid them or pick them apart.  If your concern is thieves stealing without reprisal, then make every thief immeadiately attackable by the entire tier they steal from.  Want to steal from someone?  You steal from them, you join their tier.

Me personally I would want to be on the TOP of that leaderboard and do what I could to get there.  Lets say I was in the Medium tier, I'd want to get out of there and jump with the big dogs.  Lets say I'm new.  I have time to actually sit down try and make friends, and learn the game without being DESTROYED.  Now don't get me wrong this will still happen, as a vet might roll a new character, but now this new player can try things and PKill when he feel comfortable and jump out of the gutter.

I do not play here to be the TOP of any leaderboard.  As a matter of fact, the moment it becomes about a competition and not about RP, I'm pretty much done.  Do I like Pk?  Yes.  But, my PK is driven by my RP.  I don't care if Ragnomar sits in his tower as the undisputed champion.  He can have the title.  I just want to RP the stories or characters I want to play and PK as my RP demands it.

1 hour ago, Archbishop Monk said:

want to RP the stories or characters I want to play and PK as my RP demands it.

I get it.  I want to do both though.  I think Pk is a huge part of the game and sometimes we should encourage it more.  I want to see more big dogs fighting big dogs.  I just think it will enrich the entire game.  Maybe my idea isn't the greatest, or maybe it wont work, I just feel that the learning curve is HUGE and its time that as a community we combat this some how as well.  The Status quo just isn't working.  Now if maybe there is information I'm not aware of.

Are new players staying?

Are they happy playing in this environment?

I can't answer these questions.

7 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

I get it.  I want to do both though.  I think Pk is a huge part of the game and sometimes we should encourage it more.  I want to see more big dogs fighting big dogs.  I just think it will enrich the entire game.  Maybe my idea isn't the greatest, or maybe it wont work, I just feel that the learning curve is HUGE and its time that as a community we combat this some how as well.  The Status quo just isn't working.  Now if maybe there is information I'm not aware of.

Are new players staying?

Are they happy playing in this environment?

I can't answer these questions.

The equally important question you're forgetting is "If we change this, will the vets stay? Will they be happy in this environment?" Not to mention "if we change this, will new players stay and be happy?" Because YOU are not a new player and there has been ZERO compelling evidence that new players* *feel the PK element of the game is egregiously difficult or off-putting (with the obvious caveat that said new players have reasonable expectations for what they're getting into).

To summarize my own thoughts on the matter, I think the answer to both questions is probably a resounding no. FL has very few "unique" value propositions going for it. The blend of high quality PK and RP that our world boasts has been cultivated over the course of 20 years. It is a key element of why our player retention has been as good as it has, especially amidst the sharp overall decline of the text-based game, and that balance shouldn't be thrown away or even substantially altered lightly. Aabahran is a frustrating, terrifying, dangerous, challenging place. If you remove those core elements, then this place is just another PVP-enabled roleplaying chatroom, and I guarantee you not one of us would still be here.

I will say it one last time. In my honest opinion, codifying the segregation of players through automated, in-game mechanics (i.e. through a points-based PK tiering system) is going to result in a net negative for the game. It definitely will not retain vets; it probably will not help us recruit or retain new players; it likely will not improve anybody's experience in the long term; so frankly, the only possible benefit that I can see it having is an entirely selfish one for the individual player vis-à-vis, "When I am the underdog, I am protected until I'm ready to go take over as the alpha."

1 hour ago, EllaThePuppy said:

it likely will not improve anybody's experience in the long term; so frankly, the only possible benefit that I can see it having is an entirely selfish one for the individual player vis-à-vis, "When I am the underdog, I am protected until I'm ready to go take over as the alpha."

I find this statement hard to digest.  In regards to the vets staying you think 🤔 they'll leave because they can't freely kill newbs or newish players?  Maybe people who have less time to get equipment?  People who may want to experience the way we all did 10 years ago when we all learned together?  Veteran players would not be sitting in the bottom.  It's that simple.

5 hours ago, Iznazti said:

You can't Learn where all the rare equipment is in game.  You are stuck wearing barely any.  You don't have the equipment to actually TRY and pk either.  Moderate Tier to me is for people who DONT want anything to do with PK.

Your first sentence is false.  You can learn where all the equipment is in game.  Wearing it all is a different story as you point out in your second.  That doesn't really matter on the moderate character but will give you a healthy knowledge base for when you decide to go ruthless.

You have all the equipment you need, rare or otherwise, to try to PK.  If you want, you can try to PK naked, though it's not recommended.  The point is, you don't need a god suit to PK.  And let's not assume that fighting the big dogs is the only PK in this game.

Your closing sentence here is merely opinion.  Much like how I see the moderate tier as a way to mitigate your down time after death.  You're losing at most two rares and your gold.  All your non-rares, including consumables, are safe.  And you have a safety net knowing that the person who just killed you can't attack for a short period of time.  If anything, that gives you more incentive to run back out and learn to PK.  Yes, learn.  It was designed with new players in mind.

The big flaw to this idea is precisely the "King of the Hill" mentality.  I know @Iznazti made a reference to this a few weeks ago but this really is NOT what FL is about.  If it was, players like Egreir, Anume, Tassin, Trick....they would always own the hill.  There would basically only be a few people at the top who could attack each other unless, as your idea suggested, some lower tiers attack them first.  So what happens when you're at the top, login for a week straight and nobody else at the top logs in.  What if the people at the top are all in different time zones so you never see each other?  See where I'm going here?  End game would become very boring if we transition more to the PK spectrum vs. RP.  Another flaw in this system is certain class mechanics like malforms.  DK's can't start their life at 50 climbing a PK ladder.  Avatars kinda same.  They need some dirty kills to get rolling.  And some times if they die a lot over a stretch, they need to do it again.

If you think there are reasons certain toons should be brawling but are not, then start with posting on prayer.  I got called out once for not fighting Zoichan on an avatar and lost RP points.  What's wrong with doing the same thing if you think others are breaking RP?

5 hours ago, Mmm Coffee said:

So what happens when you're at the top, login for a week straight and nobody else at the top logs in.

I don't see how this is different now, Usually when someone comes on thats tough isn't the first thing we do is Quit/Quit?