Feral Vuln, to much?

One of my more recent characters, Redhwan, was a Feral. An excellent high dex race but I found the vuln is to much for the racial benefits.

My reasoning is not that the racial benefits do not deserve a negative aspect to counteract them, but that the Vuln does not fit the benefit.

Ferals' pinned on average have between 700 - 800 hp without any significant gear focused on boosting that hp, while other races that share similar style vulns have 1200 - 1400 hp at 50. This is a true disadvantage to Ferals. A vuln to such a common damage type really nullifies and then some any benefit the feral ever could of gotten from fury/dodge expert/parry expert and higher dex.

This damage vuln is more suited for high hp races, not for high dex race.

I would like to see if we can brainstorm some alternative "negative effects" other than double damage from a common type. Something more suited for a race that has high dex but not the hp neccesary to even begin to absorb the damage from the vuln. (and dont even begin to say illithids have a similar vuln, because theirs is MUCH LESS common, so much so that you rarely meet a foe who has it.)

perhaps...(and all of these assume dropping the vuln BUT maintaining that they cant touch that type of weapon)

• movement penalty in cities (fits feral rp)

• cut the vuln from 2x to 1.5x

• dbl time on dirt kicks, this would polarize the dex benefit imho

• turn the dodge/parry boost into a power similar to unholy strength

• change the vuln from what it is to a less common damage type

• or..drop the vuln completly (maintaining no use), while sliding back the dodge/parry benefits by 1% each.

Just a few suggestions.

I 100% agree with the suggestion. Such easily exploitable vuln is too much for a race with so little CON.

The best solution I can see is to change the vuln, make it more rare, like the avian vuln perhaps.

The only race that has that much hp is ogres.

Dwarves, Avians, Undead, Illithids, etc. don't have HP like that.

And those races also don't have automastered parry and dodge to counter it out. Between their heightened defeneses, and the ability to nullify mages, ferals have it easy with this vuln. Dwarves and Illithids at least also have a significantly higher exp penalty.

Ferals are viable. Ferals are fun. If you can't handle the vuln, pick a new race, but it's not something that is disproportionate or broken. If you're really having trouble, join Watcher.

Like I've always said, ferals have been imbalanced from the beginning when I stupidly thought the human stat average was 18, not 20...so basically add +2 to their stats and you have what was intended from the start

they need their +1 attack for blms, still doesn't work

if we do add any benefits to ferals, they should coincide with the rp that they are half-demon (shouldn't really be allowed in watcher!)

take away fire vuln and give them a perm-fire shield (effectively a fire vuln but with some offensive benefit)

+regen

auto-avoid all fired weapons (demonic agility)

lag protection (like avian 10% chance for bash to miss)

What the hell makes them half demon? Just cause you live in a desert whilst shunned doesnt make you a demon... Deranged maniac perhaps, demon no.

In the year 368, a group of Miruvhorian refugees were forced to flee into

the Forsaken Lands. These men and women, driven by the instinct of

survival, managed to make their home within those lands for some time.

However, as time went on, their minds were tainted and their bodies ravaged

** by the influence of Chaos in the corrupted land on which they lived**. They

began to crouch low as their bodies attuned to the wild and some grew claws

with which to defend themselves. Their senses were empowered tremendously

even as fur covered their skin and their features grew more beastly then

human. Fire, being once a tool necessary for survival, became their greatest

fear.

The feral, as they have become known, emerged from the Forsaken Lands a

rugged and forever changed people. They are extremely fast, strong and

tough, and their need of survival has attuned their natural reflexes to the

extreme. Being the product of corruption and tainted means, the natural world

** rejected them. **They in turn rejected the civilized world and the rules

imposed upon it. Living in an extremely harsh environment, their outlook on

life is much the same. Kindness and goodness are a foreign concept to their

necessities of life. The feral are truly the forsaken people of Aabahran.

Tainted by chaos? Rejected by nature? Sounds like a demon. Maybe not half-demon, but at least demonic in nature.

edit: tooooo slow

In the year 368, a group of Miruvhorian refugees were forced to flee into

the Forsaken Lands. These men and women, driven by the instinct of

survival, managed to make their home within those lands for some time.

However, as time went on, their minds were tainted and their bodies ravaged

** by the influence of Chaos in the corrupted land on which they lived.** They

began to crouch low as their bodies attuned to the wild and some grew claws

with which to defend themselves. Their senses were empowered tremendously

even as fur covered their skin and their features grew more beastly then

human. Fire, being once a tool necessary for survival, became their greatest

fear.

The feral, as they have become known, emerged from the Forsaken Lands a

rugged and forever changed people. They are extremely fast, strong and

tough, and their need of survival has attuned their natural reflexes to the

extreme. **Being the product of corruption and tainted means, the natural world **

** rejected them.** They in turn rejected the civilized world and the rules

imposed upon it. Living in an extremely harsh environment, their outlook on

life is much the same. Kindness and goodness are a foreign concept to their

necessities of life. The feral are truly the forsaken people of Aabahran.

Are you proposing all of those changes, or just some of them, Celerity?

Even so, that doesn't really scream "Demon!". I also had no idea that they were half-demon. It should be more explicit.

The description simply makes them seem like hardcore survivalists that happened to be under too much radiation(taint if you will), didnt know it made them into half-demons....

The only race that has that much hp is ogres.

Dwarves, Avians, Undead, Illithids, etc. don't have HP like that.

And those races also don't have automastered parry and dodge to counter it out. Between their heightened defeneses, and the ability to nullify mages, ferals have it easy with this vuln. Dwarves and Illithids at least also have a significantly higher exp penalty.

Ferals are viable. Ferals are fun. If you can't handle the vuln, pick a new race, but it's not something that is disproportionate or broken. If you're really having trouble, join Watcher.

Fire Giants, and Ogres were my case study in comparison to Ferals for having similar vulns. These races, imho, are the only ones with comparable vulns when considering how common the vulns are.

The vulns on Dwarves, Illithids, and Avians are not NEARLY as common. None of these have a race like firegiants either that not only hit the vuln with their chosen weapon but hit even HARDER and more often because of their own racial. These races dont have expert parry/dodge but they have their own bonus' that facilitate in the case of dwarves and illithids as more HP.

Undeads are a qrace, they shouldnt even be compared...the immunities/powers that undeads get easily outweigh their vuln.

Ferals are not fine, they dont have the hp to counter the massive vuln they have. Not only is this vuln predominate in many of the top weapons, some of the hardest hiting spells also capitalize on it as well. Hell we have debates about invokers not even bothering with the dwarven vuln because it is inefective.

Dont give me the "toughen up" song and dance eva, I have played every race with many different classes and objectivly the vuln on Ferals is overkill for their benefits.

I think the FG vuln is worse, because ice-storm and other ice based spells do not check -aff saves. It just blasts right through everything. Fireball, while more common, is far easier to reduce in damage.

actually, proposing them independently

They really need the +2str and con though...they are supposed to be much stronger and hardier than humans (as stated in the helpfile)

only fire zerks have 1200+ hp...fire warriors get to like 900 (thus the assassinate ice storms!)

basically, ferals got rejected by everybody (gaia, chaos, civilization)--yet also all of those are part of them, almost equally-- so are kinda stuck in limbo...and pretty bitter against civilization and gaia for screwing them--chaos saved them but in the end also cursed them (feral should gravitate towards chaos) think of them as the opposites of werebeasts (who are 'blessed' not 'cursed')...the watchers would never accept anything so unnatural, demon or no

feral ninja + thieves are fine, feral melee/communers are not---rangers are fine (but due to ranger strength, not feral strength)

why the # # # # does icestorm not check aff ?? lame lame lame

why the # # # # does icestorm not check aff ?? lame lame lame

It does, it's just not as easily saved against as many other aff spells. All ice spells are this way, as far as I understance, such as a DK's iceball.

Kyzarius.

I am not telling you to toughen up. I'm telling you plain and simple - if you can't deal with the vuln, don't play the race.

Other players, including some non-Watchers (for those of you who know what I mean), have had some very real success with the feral race. It is not something that needs to be changed.

They are very well balanced in my opinion, for the perks they get versus the vuln they have.

Kyzarius.

I am not telling you to toughen up. I'm telling you plain and simple - if you can't deal with the vuln, don't play the race.

Other players, including some non-Watchers (for those of you who know what I mean), have had some very real success with the feral race. It is not something that needs to be changed.

They are very well balanced in my opinion, for the perks they get versus the vuln they have.

Aside from Senrieal, who are any other successful Ferals? I obviously haven't been here consistently enough to remember them...

a-g

Rhaz was a watcher feral ninja who was pretty good

but it really isn't about if people CAN be good with them

I could be at a 50% disadvantage and still win SOMETIMES...does mean it is balanced? haaaaah

Kind of like half-elves...remember that one half-elf who kicked butt? half-elves are just fine!! Haaaaah

Ferals are more mutants than demons.

Rhaz was a watcher feral ninja who was pretty good

Rhazhakhar kicked massive amounts of Tribunal butt.. Almost outmeleed Hit&Run's ogre warrior tribunal

Ferals are more mutants than demons.

Exactly, just because someone is corrupted doesn't mean he is demon or something. I see ferals as humans evolved into beasts and this theory of yours that they are cursed of Gaia... explain please? I don't like how you state some things just like they are facts, when they are not.

Back on topic now - the huge fire vuln is supposed to be countered with +3 to dodge/parry/dual parry and the fury ability. In theory it works well, in the real world though, I don't think so. I don't see what is the big deal with +3 to their defences and the fury ability is far from really effective. Even when mastered. The only REAL advantage I see that ferals have is their additional attack and that is not SUCH an advantage compared to their vulnerabily when having in mind the low HP.

The race definately needs to have a vulnarability, but that is just way too much.