I haven't played a thief in a VERY long time, but have certainly played against my fair share. Different players use a variety of different tactics to a degree, but I would like to see their other traps maybe retooled a bit. Either increasing in their effectiveness or maybe just a re-vamp to entice a player to choose more than just: eyeduster, anti-magic, and chestburster.
ANY other traps making sense would definitely revamp the thief class all by itself.
Also, getting the paths treatment would be pretty cool. Melee, Thief, and Traps paths fleshed out could make the class more interesting and potentially limit the hate people have for dealing with it.
I know tarako's thief I'd just log off against. I'd had my fill of playing against thieves with the undead one not too long ago. And while paladins might be boring recently there was one who I had no problems fighting against. Yeah they never killed me, but it didnt cause me to just log off and do something else.
Kind of feels like to me at least in terms of priority I'd rather not see a class and just quit vs play against a class that has little chance of killing me. In terms of playing one, well neither see much play, but the paladin characters tend to be around longer so there is that
HiWell I was fairly aggressive when my skills worked, but vs some people you just have to play the Rob them game. Like I landed some good kills and wins, there is just a hard line that you can't go past. Once someone acquires a top tier suit of eq, you rarely land blackjacks, you almost never hit mal effects. So you rely on waiting for someone to be pants down. It's just stale, and uninteresting. I sat hidden for the better part of two hours just waiting for someone to log so I could blackjack. So boring.
And pallies as a class are arguably the perfect newbie class. They just aren't very fun to play long term. It just gets so old being shoehorned into one tactic for every fight no matter who.
I might be the odd one out here, but I think the game should be less rewording for "long term" anyway. I never actually fought your guy, but I saw him a couple of times and just logged off, wasn't worth even figuring out if you were a friend or not, because frankly I learned my lesson from dealing with a thief already.
If it gets old, delete;delete and roll up something new. Seems like a viable alternative to me.
Do you have some suggestions as to what would make them more interesting then, @Pali ? They should still keep their class-identity however.
I linked above to an old post where I and others offered some ideas a while back - my ideas were largely based around giving them selectable paths, along similar lines to those @Ali_gmud was suggesting before Mya pinged me into this discussion. Giving them a holy fire-type spell to enhance their weapons was another idea I recall being floated there. I think my favorite idea from this thread was to expand the mounted combat aspect and build on the Goliath mount - make it a permanent effect or companion mob that grows in abilities as the paladin slays evils. Give the player some ability to customize this growth, either via selectable paths or having a pool of abilities to choose from at each increase in level, so that each paladin ends up gaining different abilities from it.
In an ideal world, I'd love them to get a complete rework on the level of bards or necromancers that incorporates many of these ideas. I'd try to work them away from the heal dance, as having to run away every few rounds to heal doesn't fit the image of the holy warrior standing strong against evil very well, and make them fill a new niche: make paladins the masters of the sustained battle and refocus their combat abilities around mounted combat skills rather than spells. So I'd get rid of flamestrike, wrath, and dispel evil - these would be replaced by a holy fire spell that lasts a long time and adds an effect to the paladin's weapon that requires mana upkeep during battle, and the holy fire effect grows in strength as the paladin slays evils - say it starts out as normal fire, then gains the ability to smoke blind, then becomes holy and does extra damage to evils, then the mana upkeep gets cut down, then it gets a baseline damage increase, then it maxes out at causing fear in evil enemies; upon the paladin's death the holy fire effect loses power, either by a few tiers or being reset to level 1. Then get rid of cure critical and replace it with a healing aura that will autoheal during combat, again with mana upkeep as it procs.
Make mounted combat the focus of the class's skill tree, with a series of selectable paths to choose and Goliath being a permanent spell (or at least lasting much longer than 24 hours) - let's say it gets 4 selections. Make the first one a choice between 3 mounted stances: offensive gets a bite or kick attack from the horse added to normal combat, defensive adds a new defense along the lines of mammoth blocking, and normal stance is the current magic strike that fires when bashed. The next three selections are mounted combat maneuvers that are selected from a pool of nine abilities (6 offensive, 3 defensive, but any can be chosen at any stage): a bite attack that causes wounding, a trample attack that causes lag (make it slightly less effective than bashing), a charge that causes high damage especially if a polearm is wielded, a kick from the horse that causes thunderclap, an onslaught-style maneuver that hits harder if it can be landed in successive hits (perhaps performs better if dual wielding), an eyestrike with the spurs that acts like dirt kick, an escape maneuver that works like Warmaster retreat and lets you choose which way to run, an evasion maneuver that negates a single melee attack each round until another maneuver is used, and an evasion maneuver that reduces incoming spell damage as hitting the paladin with a targeted or AoE spell is more difficult as he rides around at full speed. edit: These stances and maneuvers are obviously just what I came up with off the top of my head and could be altered or replaced by more appropriate ones. edit 2: Also, maneuvers would have some mana cost upon use to reflect the paladin having to focus on controlling his mount - when combined with the upkeep from holy fire and the healing aura, the paladin will still have to worry about burning through mana over the course of an extended battle. When out of mana the auras end and maneuvers can't be pulled off, though the mounted stances will still work.
This gives us a paladin that still embodies the Holy Warrior on a Great Steed concept and fills a new niche in the game, that has 81 1512 (bad math edit) different build combos available to individualize each character, that has greater versatility in what mid-battle skills are available, and that grows in power over time via holy fire.
And I know I'm a broken record on this, but seriously: at least make cabal charmies exempt from heroism. Every time I joined Knight it grated on me that I couldn't use them together. Every time I thought about making a paladin for Tribunal I remembered my Knights and didn't bother. 90% of the playerbase supports this. The trade-off for joining a cabal is that you gain responsibilities but you also gain new powers - but paladins don't get to make full use of those powers without sacrificing arguably the best one they already have, making it an unfair trade for them.
As for where to put this on the priority list, shrugs I'm just here because I got pinged and have paladin-related thoughts, so they're what I'm giving.
I like a lot of the ideas here @Pali but I'm pretty against giving another class bonuses based on their kill count. We already have DKs, Crusaders, Avatars, and clerics all increasing in power based on their kills. I'm interested in hearing how you would make it unique without them feeling like a crusader who buffs a mount instead of a weapon.
Selectable paths could be a better option, as ideally every class would have them.
As for them increasing in power based on stuff maybe make them empower up based on their quest log. Some cabals already require this to advance in rank, and it gives them a more unique way to advance in power. While giving them less of a "destroyer/killer" mentality and instead having it based on others hearing about their noble deeds throughout the lands.
What if they got bonuses based on how many evils they mercy? Only evils to prevent friendly challenge abuse for this mechanic. Called "Redemption" or something. This also forces a choice been killing and looting, or mercy for Redemption points. Goal remains the same. And again, works only on evils so it's at MOST as abusable as DK's already are, which is not very. Just a thought.
A fair objection, @Rensvert, and while I like your mercy idea @Twinblades713 I don’t think it quite fits - and it absolutely doesn’t synergize at all with an avatar paladin (and come to think of it, having an avatar paladin gaining two types of power per kill is perhaps too much synergy). I’d actually considered suggesting that it be based off of rescues, but couldn’t figure out a way to make that work right.
My first thought here is to then stick with the sustained battle motif I’m aiming for and have the holy fire gain in power the longer the battle lasts. Say the holy fire affect has a 24-tick timer, and every ten rounds spent in battle while the effect is active pushes the fire up a level - could even be different counts when fighting neutrals rather than evils. After the fire falls, when recast it is set back to level 1. This would reinforce the need to either kill a paladin quickly or use hit and run tactics, because the long drawn out battle is exactly what the paladin wants.
The problem with that idea is that it no longer provides the paladin a sense of growth over time - and I don’t like substituting quests here either, as then people who know the quests will jump to high levels of holy fire almost the instant they hit 50, again stripping away growth over time along with being disproportionately favorable to veteran players. Tying it to hours in-game sort of works for the growth aspect, but again just rewards most the people who need it the least, and likewise tying it to RP points gained. Making it something to apply for or otherwise requiring IMM input could work, but it’s more work for the IMMs and would be subject to the same complaints of subjectivity and timing we already see for quest race and cabal apps.
Kills is a great metric because it checks all the boxes: it’s RP-appropriate, it’s natural growth and rewards based on in-game events, it’s an automated system, and it’s fair to newb and vet alike (or at least as fair as any aspect of the PK system is). I honestly can’t think of anything else that checks all the same boxes.
I know I'm repeating myself here, but here is an idea.
What if at say level 50 there is a quest paladins can do, say an epic quest. Something that they can start on as soon as they hit 50. Which causes them to go and do quest stuff. After X point in the quest they need either Y amount of hours to pass or Z amount of kills. This then allows them to continue their quest. Along the way they get to make choices of either buffing up their fire aura or goliath or something else. In other words giving them a selectable. Their can be a few different "levels" to this quest and they are wither going to be time gated by hours or kills.
This way it slowly adds to elements that they can try to liven up their combat, while not directly tying it to kills. And due to the fact that it's not based directly around kills. After all if the goal is to make the class more enjoyable to play, basing it completely around kills only makes it more interesting to those players who can get said kills in the first place.
This not only allows for an interesting and unique progression for the class, but going on a solo epic quest is kind of perfect for a paladin. In combination to this, it allows for say if a fully buffed paladin would be too strong as an avatar, or elf or whatever other combo, you could have the quest just atop earlier than other combos that might need a little extra oomph.
It also allows for players who have no problem getting kills the ability to at least skip a portion of the timer. If say the timer is naturally 8 hours in between each quest segment you could say deduct an hour per kill they get up to 5 hours off the timer. Furthermore it would be a pretty unique "end game growth" in comparison to just needing to get kills to power up.
Definitely like the concept - it would make paladins into a semi-quest class not too far off from druids, and would be a nice unique mechanic for them.
Three possible issues come to mind. The first is that tying progression to kills strongly incentivizes player-to-player interaction, but having an option to progress based on hours drastically weakens that incentive. The second is very closely related: tying progression to kills requires you to take risks to progress, while simply spending time logged in does not, and I don’t think power should be gained without risk in FL.
The third is again closely related: I envisioned the holy fire as losing power upon death and needing to be regained so that it’s a continuing mechanic rather than a box to check. If the paladin is fighting enough to get maxed out holy fire, it should be only a matter of time before the paladin falls somehow and then has to earn either some or all of it back - and like with malforms, the fact that it isn’t a permanent buff and can be lost means that we can up the amount of power the top tiers grant because not everyone will get there and even fewer will be able to stay there forever, making it something worth the risks and effort to gain.
But a quest like you describe is not something that a player should be repeating multiple times over the course of a character’s life (it would be tedious and not make much sense lore-wise), and it is something that every paladin played would be likely to achieve by simply not deleting before a certain amount of time - this would limit how much power it could grant without being a balance issue, and reduce the sense of pride and accomplishment in those who do pull it off (I use that phrasing without irony).
I dont know I mean every quest class in the game requires zero PK and you can hit Leader of a cabal entirely based again on RP with very little to zero PK required. Also we have an entire RP system, which ties power to RP, sure you might think it should be tied to pk but tying power to PK is only something in very few situations Avatar, DK, Crusader, Evil Clerics. So 3 classes and a race, 2 of which are quest things. Not completely sure we should A. offset the balance of being 2 goods and 2 evils. and B. just regular kills means its something we already have, and classes should feel unique to each other IMO.
While I do like the idea of it being a continuing mechanic, tying it just to kills will make it exactly like the others and I think this game needs less of that as it is, not more. I like playing paladins, I think they have cool RP and an interesting kit. You make it so I need kills to progress and there is zero chance I ever play one again. While I might be in the minority there, this game does not really need more of a reason for players to look for and take advantage of shit PK situations. Like chilling at pits, and waiting for people to loose challenges. I dont think we need to encourage more of that, and again tying it directly to kills and only kills means they are going to be crusaders, except leveling up fire instead of a weapon.
I am not convinced we need to make it a non permanent buff, yeah it would be weaker than a temporary thing, but I dont think they need to have a power cap of say a crusader weapon or a malform we already have those things, not sure what purpose giving paladins that would be outside of buffing paladins to crazy amounts.
The idea with a quest is you could make the entire chain be say 400 hours worth of wait time if you want it to be a long progression or a continued one. I am also just super against the idea of adding something else to this game that not everyone will experience. We need more content for everyone, not just for the top X% of players. Again just my two cents, but making it temporary and tying it to kills for sure means that the change just killed a class for me.
You can hit Leader outside of Herald with zero PKs these days? I know that qraces lost the requirement, but I thought that was a change done for primarily practical reasons - it’s not like we have a lot of chars chilling at 30 these days.
Let me amend my original phrase: I don’t think power should be granted without risk or effort. RP takes effort. Sitting in the middle of nowhere twiddling your thumbs should never gain you anything - yes, it’ll get you through the first few levels of being caballed, but at least there you are on call if an enemy shows up, and at that point not putting in effort will hamper your progression.
I get where you’re coming from on the problems with making it based on kills - I’m just stuck thinking we have yet to come up with something truly better, and I sincerely tried to do so before putting together my idea for the class rebuild and failed miserably. The basic problem that is holding me up here is that going on an epic quest is all well and good if there is an epic return on that investment, but if everyone can and will do it the return can’t be epic without throwing out balance. If the power isn’t epic, it isn’t worth an epic quest to obtain it.
There have always been huge sections of the game that not everyone will experience - I don’t think that is a design flaw. I’ve never had level 10 malforms, but I don’t think that’s a problem with DKs. I fundamentally disagree that a sandbox game world should be built on a philosophy of Everything For Everyone - I think that discourages specialization and diversity of experiences, while a philosophy of Something For Everyone allows for a far greater variety of experiences while still giving everyone somewhere they can fit in, and is a far more achievable goal. It simply isn’t possible to design a toy that every kid will want to play with, but stock a store with a wide enough variety of toys and nearly every kid who comes in will find something they want to play with. If the new paladins aren’t for everyone, that’s fine by me.
Edit: think of it this way: if it is special, everyone will want it. But if everyone has it, it isn’t special anymore, it’s now normal. It only stays special if not everyone who wants it manages to get it. I want it to stay special, so I’m content with not everyone getting it.
That said, while I don’t think your quest solution is the right one, keep spitballing - I would honestly prefer it to not be based around kills myself, but as I mentioned earlier, I’ve yet to think of something else that checks the boxes I’m trying to check with it.
So we are coming at the growth-over-time aspect for the holy fire ability with our two different perspectives, and we disagree on how best to implement it. Cool. Anyone else care to chime in so that it isn’t just us doing the theory-crafting?
I dont know man, to be honest I think adding it based on kills is the wrong approach and gave my reasons for it, you disagree. I've said before that regardless of what happens I certainly dont think Paladin should be next on the list of adjustments.
I've also said I'm fine with their being content I'll never see, I just don't think this game needs more of it. I'll never have a leader in a cabal for example, nor will I ever have a maxed anything that requires kills. But as I said before if you base it on kills it's now just a crusader with spells, or literally identical to a good DK. Seems pretty pointless to me, and if that's the way it's going, just give them a couple of selectables and be done with it.
Then how about making it not based upon kills, but based upon survival and constant combat? Take some of the pandemonium skills idea and add to that (Eye of Moloch for reference):
Like @Pali said, have it based upon combat rounds and fighting, dropping off in duration for the number of hours you are out of combat. Now, if you kill said evil attacking you, it extends the duration (not the power) of the holy aura affects by some variable (let's say 48hours for argument sake. If you begin a new battle during that time-frame, it will begin to again extend the duration of the affect. This way, the more often you fight, the longer the duration of the buff without the required kills, but the required fighting. It keeps Paladin's focus on longer duration fights (I.e. more combat rounds) without forcing them to kill. If they die, they can lose all duration. Just make sure it is a skill, not a spell, so that it cannot be dispelled.
As far as a paladin focusing on melee more, I don't mind that as long as they keep their responsive playstyle. Blademaster's are melee, but they don't just sit back and watch rounds. I'd like the paladin defense and offense to reflect that.
So we want to make paladins, want to be in combat to get stronger and stronger? No offense but that seems like a zerker idea not really a paladin one. I get the idea of it I really do and it certainly is better than just getting kills, but, it's way easier to abuse. Just get a friend and soar with them for X amount of rounds, Now that I am all revved up I'll go rofl stomp that other guy.
Tying power to combat length just encourages them to extend out the combat so then they can kill and keep on killing. And basing it entirely on kills as I've explained before is a bad idea.
Most classes in the game do not have variable power levels outside of their equipment, is there a reason why paladins should change? Like the entire point was to rework them to make them more fun to play. Making it so they need kills in order to mix up their gameplay is kind of stupid, for example I get 10 kills and the class is fun to play now, but if I have 0 it's boring and samey over and over again, or I die and loose all power and the class is samey again?
I dont really understand why attaching class power to kills was ever a thing, but at least it's rare. However we have very few alignment based classes and currently both good quest things power level is tied to kills, and taking another good class and tying its power to kills. Well the game is already at least partially biased towards evils, this just makes it worse.
I wasn't suggesting at all that ALL of the Paladin skills are tied to kills. I agreed with @Pali ideas about making them having other skill in combat (some auto, some not) that will make them formidable. Dk's can obviously kill just fine without having lvl10 malforms. They may not be the walking gods, but they can definitely ruin some peoples day.
All I am suggesting is that the offense of 'holy aura' is directly tied to combat. Think of it as stacking also as well with other cabal skills. You get Knight skills in either subcabal to go along WITH this aura. The idea is to keep the motif of the paladin build preferring longer drawn out fights rather through quick skirmishes rather than overwhelming force. Tweak the numbers however you'd like, but the motif is why I have played paladin before.