Paladins

2 hours ago, Rensvert said:

Making it so they need kills in order to mix up their gameplay is kind of stupid, for example I get 10 kills and the class is fun to play now, but if I have 0 it's boring and samey over and over again, or I die and loose all power and the class is samey again?

As @Archbishop Monk noted, my rework isn't centered around holy fire - it's centered around the mounted combat selectables, all of which will work exactly the same whether you have zero kills or a thousand.  A paladin with no kills still has everything he needs to slay evil if he takes some of the more offensive maneuvers, and a paladin whose RP doesn't require him to slay evil could focus exclusively on defensive selectables and be damned hard to kill - take the defensive stance along with the evasion and retreat maneuvers and keep up your healing aura and you'll be able to last for a very long time, though killing someone will be very difficult.  The holy fire is meant to be the cherry on top of the mounted combat sundae, not the focus of the class.

3 hours ago, Rensvert said:

I dont really understand why attaching class power to kills was ever a thing

As I noted above, it's because gaining power based on kills checks so many of the necessary boxes: it provides automated lore-friendly growth over time, but that growth is contingent upon taking risks and interacting with other players.  You don't have to like a gameplay mechanic to understand why it's a mechanic - I hate loot boxes and most free-to-play monetization models, but I understand why they make money.

5 minutes ago, Pali said:

my rework isn't centered around holy fire - it's centered around the mounted combat selectables, all of which will work exactly the same whether you have zero kills or a thousand.  A paladin with no kills still has everything he needs to slay evil if he takes some of the more offensive maneuvers, and a paladin whose RP doesn't require him to slay evil could focus exclusively on defensive selectables and be damned hard to kill - take the defensive stance along with the evasion and retreat maneuvers and keep up your healing aura and you'll be able to last for a very long time, though killing someone will be very difficult.  The holy fire is meant to be the cherry on top of the mounted combat sundae, not the focus of the class.

I hate Paladins period.  I played one once and I hated it.  This would make me play one again.  I like how there is "the best of both worlds option.  And like DK's it forces the Paladin to play the part and kill evil, as well as gives the option to those who want to Rp still be able to have fun.  Thumbs up from me :) 

Id personally love to see goodies get some Mals.  Why should'nt a goodie be able to burn your evil taint with garlic or something holy and have you be hurt over time?  The idea that goodies are so passive is nonsense to me.  An Evil should want to run from a pally.  Not giggle while they scratch you with some puny flames.

A DK can kill anyone without a malformed weapon.  Just got to learn how to weapon swap in battle.  That's how you get a Malformed 10 weapon.

45 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

It just sounds like you're whinning dude.  Damn right they should need kills.  The game is a pk/rp game.

Hold are you really saying that a paladin should be terrible if they cant get a kill? Because that's what you quoted? Either that or you were trying to take me out of context. Which if you were a reporter would get you sued....

I understand why the mechanic exists, I just dont think goods need another class that's power is tied to kills as I've stated many times now, getting stronger based on kills encourages shitty gameplay. The game should be moving away from that not adding more incentive to them.

To top it off if you want this, go avatar the option is already there, or play a crusader again an option to allow you to increase in power while killing all you want. 

The best argument seems to be, I cant think of anything else so might as well just tie it to kills. 

Also I I unsure what game you are playing but if you think people really use PK to RP regularly you must be playing at a drastically different time than I am. As I've played quite a bit and the only person currently who does this that ive seen is Azan, and to a lesser extent the demon cleric in savant. I am sure more people do, but the vast majority of my experiences would suggest the exact opposite.

27 minutes ago, Iznazti said:

like how there is "the best of both worlds option.

Thanks, that’s what I was aiming for.  I thought about breaking up the maneuver selectables so that there would be a selection of one offensive maneuver focused on damage dealing, one defensive focused around evading damage, and one utility based around landing a mal or lag - but then I figured it would be more of interesting to allow for the option of being an all defense or all offense or anything in between paladin.  I also tried to build the maneuvers in such a way that they’d be of varying utility against different targets: an offensive stance paladin with the spell evasion, dual wield-friendly onslaught and blinding spurs maneuvers would be an anti-mage paladin, for instance.  I’m sure some of my suggested maneuvers could be improved upon, but I really like the idea of having a big pool of selectables to pick and choose from instead of something closer to ranger and necro selectable paths.

18 minutes ago, Rensvert said:

The best argument seems to be, I cant think of anything else so might as well just tie it to kills.

...which is a time-tested and effective method of creating progression.  I didn’t pick kills as some random metric, I picked them because they work.  What I can’t think of is anything else that works as well or better.

4 hours ago, Rensvert said:

I dont really understand why attaching class power to kills was ever a thing

22 minutes ago, Rensvert said:

I understand why the mechanic exists

I hope you can understand my confusion here, then.

just because I understand why it exists does not mean I ever understood why it was used. I get that as you put it "its the more effective way for creating progression" but I'd readily disagree with you. The game has RP points and again you can get any quest thing you want in the game without needing a kill. Hell tattoos are entirely based on RP from my understanding, and the game has 2 cabals entirely devoted to RP. saying that its the most effective method of progression is just ignoring the fact that the game has intentionally created other forms of progression. Really though this is me just repeating myself over and over again, so I do not rightfully see a reason for me to continue in this discussion.

I’m still confused, but that’s okay. 😉 I appreciate the input.

On 11/25/2019 at 5:52 AM, Anume said:

Do you have some suggestions as to what would make them more interesting then, @Pali ? They should still keep their class-identity however.

I mean, a lot of classes can't really force a mess up, e.g. against a prot shield vs melee,. it's up to the opponent to mess up there.

I always thought paladins could use a few different playstyles, whereas the last time I played one no particular playstyle was super viable (especially not without being augmented by a select number of cabal choices) or with a supreme level of skill that could make even an underpowered combo good.

One thought of mine has always been that paladins could be an amazing bridge between clerics and crusaders (which to my mind, is what they've always been). So if you consider it that way, how can we make that workable? One answer has always been weapon selection... but the stock paladin skillset is designed to benefit most from two-handed weapons, especially polearms. Grafting more weapon choices onto the class isn't necessary going to fix the problem, but giving them more opportunities to explore pathing tied to their choices of weaponry could be interesting. For example:

Path #1: Path of Righteousness

• Standard paladin skillset, with added bonuses to two handed. Includes some sort of weapon empowerment ability, somewhere between bardic weapons and DK malforms/crusader blades. Loses dual wield but gets a bonus to two handed. Adds bonus proficiency (102%?) for mounted combat.

Path #2: Path of Salvation

• Leaning more toward the cleric side of things and emphasizes attrition-based combat with a single blade/hammer + shield. Perhaps a supplemental attack skill and defense skill (fourth attack, riposte, whatever) at the expense of losing dual wield and two handed.

Path #3: Path of Vengeance

• Leaning more toward a pure fighter, this path would be focused on a zealot, rage-like obsession with carving a path to the light - straight through the enemy.  Emphasizes dual wielding, speedy attacking, strong openers and closers, with limited healing ability but massively increased damage output.

Divine Expertise

Path of Righteousness

Heroism effects: +HP, +Mana, +Charge %, +Two Handed %, +Critical Wrath chance (gives wrath X% chance to cause Age-esque decrease in skill/spell proficiency with every cast)

Goliath effect: No change to mount type, remains a goliath stallion. Gives paladin +armor and substantially higher charge damage over other paths

Path of Salvation

Heroism effects: +Hitgain, +Managain, +Cure Crit/New Heal spell %, +Shield Block%, +Critical heal chance (gives a cure crit X% chance to heal double and cure a random debuff)

Goliath effect: Converts goliath into a goliath elephant. Gives chance to avoid bash/bodyslam, gives resting level hitgain/managain even while standing

Path of Vengeance

Heroism effects: +Hitroll, +Damroll, +Wrath skill, +Wrath damage, +Critical flamestrike chance (gives flamestrike X% chance to cause opponent to pass out from smoke inhalation)

Goliath effect: Converts goliath into a goliath Gryffin. Gives paladin +flying affect while mounted and makes them immune to enfeeblement/drain while mounted, gives +movegain

Divine Mastery

Path of Righteousness

Apostolic Blade - Imbues a weapon with righteous power. Applies a standard set of bonuses (e.g. +hit/dam, +hitgain, +hp/mana, whatever), and a supplemental randomized bonus (shock, wrath, sharp, etc).

Path of Salvation

Lightmend - Imbues a fallen ally with renewed life, resurrecting the fallen and providing a substantial buff to the paladin. Has a significant cooldown for use and buff does not stack with every usage, lasts for a substantial period

Path of Vengeance

Righteous Hammer - Gives a minor dancing blade to the paladin as they imbue a hammer (mace only) with the power of the light. Has a significant cooldown (needs to be a strategic usage, not a constant buff) and has the chance to hammer bash (cause 1 round of lag), concuss (cause more frequent spell and ability fail), or do extra damage to opponent

I think any buffs from a resurrection should be permanent (until the paladin’s death) given how rarely the opportunity arises these days.

I like those paths a lot.  It’s not quite as... ambitious? Comprehensive? Whatever the right word is... a redesign as my suggestion, but it would certainly give some badly needed versatility to the class.