Rangers

I believe the power spike of a giant ranger either stone or ogre is quite insane, Though I believe only a skilled player can keep a ranger at its peak.

I also think a ranger along with cabal charmies are alittle much sure with a necromancer its the same but they worked awfully hard to get those zombies when all a ranger has to do is type one command, Sure people will say you can get them away from their charmies, but as always its not the case when forced into combat by eg. Your standard being taken.

as for beasts being killed easily, I don't believe so when they are sanced, And any smart ranger has them sanced in every fight. So prehaps beasts may be the problem?

In all some combos rangers can play meaning paths + cabal choice are nearly unbeatable when played by a skilled player, As I stated they peak very high.

I will join the discussion. I agree, Rangers have too much. Not only are they MUCH less eq reliant than any other melee, they can also outmelee a melee.

A ranger vs. a warrior, all things being equal with equipment and the like. The ranger will have huge advantages over the warrior. Personally, I don't think a ranger should ever be able to outmelee a warrior in this situation.

A mithril ranger vs a mithril warrior, the ranger will win.

A decked ranger vs a decked warrior, the warrior will win.

I think rangers are fine, they have a lower power spike than a true melee, but they can get there and stay there easier. And anyhows its more appropriate to compare a ranger with a BLM, both cannot reliably lag. So now, who thinks rangers are stronger than BLMs?

I see that people are posting the rangers are overpowered again. My question is who at 50 besides Triathrix who is played very well AND had some NIIIIICE cabal skills to supplement the character dominants the pbase with a ranger?

Where is the overpoweredness?

1.) Ranger >> Warrior!

From what I've seen with my character, many warriors are ill played. People just like to charge in, bash, bash, loot. Thats not going to fly with a well played ranger. Warriors are all about using their cunning and the right weapon sets, and terrain fighting. Think before you leap.

I however will agree that staff is too damn defensive. I personally think that someone dual weilding two whips should dominate someone who is wielding a staff.

2.) Thunderstorm too strong!

Thunderstorm requires considerable upkeep. 25 mana for control weather, 50 for the thunderstorm. Not only that but maintaining the weather is a task in itself. If thunderstorm is giving you the blues you can either fight indoors or in rooms where the weather can not be seen.

I will say that thunderstorm seems to strike hard no matter the AC. Maybe it should be change to how much metal the person is wearing or something.

3.) Herb is too cool!

A 250-300 hp recovery for 12 hours is not going to save the day. Lesson, if you are fighting a ranger and he/she/it hasnt herbed and you are both low on hp then you should have fled a long time ago. Fighting rangers is about common sense and tact, you have to look past how "hurt" the person is in battle and think "what can this person do to recover from this beating" and "is it safe for me to continue fighting".

4.) Pets kicking my hinnie!

If pets are hitting you alot then you might want to invest in a more defensive weapon. There is no reason why you should get slaughtered due to pet damage. Also anyone ever thought of plaguing the pets? They are really easy to plague directly, and also catch the plague indirect very easily. Last anyone think of going through lock doors translucently? I have not personally found a way to give pets pass door.

From what I've read so far these seem to be the issue. Also there seems to an issue with rangers being too melee. A well played warrior, monk, or half-decent blademaster will give a ranger a very hard time. As for rouges being beat by rangers, I have to say of course they will. Rangers are forest warriors by definition and by skill set. If a rouge wants to beat a ranger they will have to be very careful and outsmart said ranger.

I will close but saying I think people find it hard to finish off a ranger and that is where most of the problem is. By skill set rangers are granted the camouflage skill and this skill makes it almost impossible for people to get the jump on said ranger and keep them from hiding. My only suggestion is to use whatever tactics you have for thieves and ninjas who do the same thing.

My thoughs.

I think the problem is that Rangers were step one on a general overhaul, and Viri left before he put in any of the other steps.

Even if its not for balance reasons, freshening up the classes can only be a positive anyway. I know people like to figure out every coded trick in the book, and tweaking classes gives a lot of replayability whilst keeping some of the mystery. Ideally I'd like to see every class have some 'path' choices the same way Rangers do, but thats not really realistic considering the amount of coder time it would take.

As for a hard time against paladins and battlemages' date=' I can't figure that one out (if anyone would care to explain this one to me, please.)[/quote']

I don't know about bmgs, but Ilendriel rocked every ranger he fought because of the following abilities. Flamestrike to remove the pets from consideration through blind, nodisarm polearm means you should be keeping about even in melee (maybe a little below their output, but that's to be expected), missile scrolls to remove fired weapons from the mix, goliath + mounted combat so no trip lag... you may not really have a way to pin the ranger down other than charge, but they have no way to pin you down at all... and the paladin can easily outheal and outlast the ranger, and can cure every mal the ranger tosses. All the paladin has to do is wear the ranger down, which it can easily do given its superior regeneration and curative abilities, while waiting for the right moment for a mounted charge to end it. Sure, it can VERY easily degenerate into a stalemate... but the ranger will be the one running/camoing nearly every time.

Don't forget summon. Every ranger these days seems to have a mental weakness.

I see that people are posting the rangers are overpowered again. My question is who at 50 besides Triathrix who is played very well AND had some NIIIIICE cabal skills to supplement the character dominants the pbase with a ranger?

I'd certainly like to think Dumela fits into this category

2.) Thunderstorm too strong!

Thunderstorm requires considerable upkeep. 25 mana for control weather, 50 for the thunderstorm. Not only that but maintaining the weather is a task in itself. If thunderstorm is giving you the blues you can either fight indoors or in rooms where the weather can not be seen.

I will say that thunderstorm seems to strike hard no matter the AC. Maybe it should be change to how much metal the person is wearing or something.

This may be true for rangers, but for the love of god dont change thunderstorm because this will affect the power output of Druids beyond the point of them EVER being effective in pk.

Thats one area I think I have the authority to say.

3.) Herb is too cool!

A 250-300 hp recovery for 12 hours is not going to save the day. Lesson, if you are fighting a ranger and he/she/it hasnt herbed and you are both low on hp then you should have fled a long time ago. Fighting rangers is about common sense and tact, you have to look past how "hurt" the person is in battle and think "what can this person do to recover from this beating" and "is it safe for me to continue fighting".

Herb, like a battlemages healing, is an art. Knowing when to use it is where its power lies and I can tell you now, thats NOT at the end of a fight.

From what I've read so far these seem to be the issue. Also there seems to an issue with rangers being too melee. A well played warrior' date=' monk, or half-decent blademaster will give a ranger a very hard time. As for rouges being beat by rangers, I have to say of course they will. Rangers are forest warriors by definition and by skill set. If a rouge wants to beat a ranger they will have to be very careful and outsmart said ranger.[/quote']

FL relies on many different things, more then just skillsets and skill. However I have to say that any blademaster argument is null and void if the ranger knows wha they are doing. They go a certain stance, you do something very easy to combat it, they go another you just change tactics slightly and you beat them still. (this is easier for some paths then others, but still, any skilled ranger will know what to do to win.)

Now don't get me wrong. I have had many rangers and I still plan to play Dumela when my life pans out to a reasonable stage(not to mention another 3 rangers of various path/align/ethos at 50 that I will play at some stage.) I also at this time dont fight any rangers (or did when I was more active in game) that give me huge amounts of problems so Im not looking to changes to boost my chances of survival. But rangers are incredibly strong. They have the ability RAPE nearly everything especially in giant races (triathix, Corinkroth, Zpenobup for example).

Meh just my 2am 2c

-A

Pali and Anoneemus, thank you. I'm not exactly sure why all that didn't just occur to me.

a-g

I would suggest restricting the items that give higher-level group sanc in terms of duration or rarity, or just have them give individual sanc only.

The mana that giant race rangers gain per level could be revisited so they have maybe 350 mana at 50. That would neutralize the threat from thunderstorm or any sort of cabal afflictive spells for giant races without completely gimping smaller ranger races.

Pugil could be made a selectable skill that doesn't go with tracker. Thunderstorm and control weather could also be made selectable, although I would consider this a last resort.

Finally the beasts were strengthened in various ways--perhaps revisit that for non-beastmasters. Mammoths for instance used to get 1 attack per round, ravens didn't trip, etc. Also, you should lose your beasts when logging out. I always felt this change was unnecessary.

All that said, a decked caballed ogre ranger is going to be a handful no matter how the class is tweaked, so you have to think about what you're doing rather than just standing there and taking it. Pali, Anoneemus, and others have all suggested simple but extremely effective strategies for fighting a ranger. There are many, many others.

I think the problem is that Rangers were step one on a general overhaul' date=' and Viri left before he put in any of the other steps.[/quote']

Actually they were kind of toward the end. It went something like this:

Warriors and Berzerkers late 1.0 or early 2.0 (weapon lores and paths, although not as thorough a revamp as rangers would get)

Thieves late 1.0 or early 2.0 (traps, better blackjack)

Paladins with 2.0 (Goliath, supercharge, and trance)

DKs sometime 2.0 (they were gimped: no more one-hit kill cleave, charm person results in autoattack on expiration)

Clerics sometime 2.0 (steel wall--did they always have DIs?)

Rangers late 2.0 or early 3.0

Also Shamans were effectively redone with 2.0 by changing moves and saves, although the latter affected all c/c classes.

Pali and Anoneemus, thank you. I'm not exactly sure why all that didn't just occur to me.

a-g

Before playing Ilendriel, I thought the same thing, so don't feel bad. I also found on him that paladins do quite well against blademasters.

I just always forget how valuable a spell Flamestrike really is. Maybe that's why my Paladins always died... I rarely used it outside of Elium, and never on players. "Oh, screw it, it won't help" co 'wra';co 'wra'

a-g

I used flamestrike FAR more often than I did wrath, in pretty much every fight. Wrath's what I used only after flamestrike blind landed, or if sanc dropped I'd go for a power hit, or as a finishing assault with holy word up... and there I tended more to use dispel evil than wrath.

I'd like to suggest we start focusing on toning up some of these classes that have a hard time against rangers instead of toning down yet another class.

The reason the whole "nerf" process is the better option is actually not realized by most people.

Why do developers break out the nerf bat when things are unbalanced? Because, if you tone up one class, and another is lacking, then you tone the lacking one. However, doing might cause a domino effect and EVERYONE will be toned up at some point. Why is this bad? Then you have to rebalence equipment, mobs, and quests to reflect everyone's new strength.

So, breaking out a nerf gun and dropping a ton of suction darts on one class or race or skill is the better option 90% of the time.

a-g

The thing that gets me is giant rangers. I've seen very few effective non-giant rangers. (W00t Dumela, and Trekonomis.) Also, that fact that a giant can hide via camo bugs me. It's doesn't fit real well for rp. As I heard earlier, if you think it's overpowered, roll one and abuse it, I did. I feel I'm doing way better than I do with most of my other chars, despite reviewing logs and knowing I made mistakes. I beat a char that was way better played simply because I could hide and rest when I needed to, had massive hp to throw away, and huge damage output to sit on. My idea is to limit rangers to smaller races. Maybe knock camo off of giant rangers or remove them entirely. It's a bit of a change, but I always thought there was something wrong with huge rangers. Especially as being any type of rogue class, I think they should be limited to at least normal size races. Rangers are still pretty dangerous, but it seems more level.

Meh, that's what I've thought.

I've always agreed with the fact that there shouldn't be giant rangers.

"Hey look at me! I'm 15 feet tall, I'm going to hide in these bushes!"

I mean hell, an ogre camo'd is like trying to find a haystack hiding behind a needle. There is no other rogue or hybrid that can be giant, so why the one that has the opportunity for the biggest output and has dual parry?

Fire giant thieves for the win. Please, please, please, for Halloween at least??

Rangers. After reading this and hearing everyone say they are overpowered (I'm not sure I agree) here are some possible solutions, mix and match 'em however you want.

1. Remove staves.

2. Remove two of the pets and give them a more reliable lag. They are warriors of the forest. Also, redo the beast master path.

3. Remove control weather.

4. Remove all pets, give them the last weapon(s), and TWO reliable lag abilities.

5. Remove ogres (not stone giants, they're natural to this) and add slith.

6. Give them a different form of thunderstorm than druids/invokers/whoever else gets it if anybody.

7. Give them some skill that makes them effective against mages if you in anyway tamper with pets.

Maybe ogres just shouldn't be able to be rangers.