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RP Points

@f0xx also adding in the ability to get RP points from killing a member of the opposing Cabal if they're an Elder or higher. It could be added to include Coup.

The final one would be a help file for 'ShowRP' because I haven't seen one, and I didn't even know it existed until Viruthx accidentally sent me a tell with it. At first I figured it was nonsense, but then I typed it for kicks. Low and behold though, I got to see all of the reasons I got RP points for. Extremely handy for most people if they don't already know.

1 hour ago, Tantangel said:

@f0xx in a nutshell increase RP point gain from 30 on based off each level you gain in a group. No group = no RP point gain.

One of the main reasons for the introduction of RP points was to boost roleplay. So I believe they should be given only for roleplay. I don't even agree with the current situation where pinnacles get RP for helping people rank, but that was implemented because: 1) to give incentive for pinnacles to help people rank and 2) to help people who are not that good with RP not to fall behind. And it has worked wonderfully so far. So I disagree with that idea of yours.

 

1 hour ago, Tantangel said:

Add more items to the Bazaar, whether it be physical objects or spells/skills you can learn such as Identify and Locate Object that's already there.

I am all for that. You can already create your own armors, albeit at some VERY steep prices. As for spells/skills, as long as they stay just for the sake of convenience, which is what identify and locate object are (despite what Wade claims), I am fine with that too. Your suggestions though, with Word of recall, Teleport, Cure light, are not that. 

 

1 hour ago, Tantangel said:

@f0xx also adding in the ability to get RP points from killing a member of the opposing Cabal if they're an Elder or higher. It could be added to include Coup.

Strongly disagree. You get RP for RP. That's the whole point of RP.

 

1 hour ago, Tantangel said:

The final one would be a help file for 'ShowRP' because I haven't seen one

Sure.

 

On a final note, this is why I asked for a summary. 

On 7/22/2017 at 10:46 PM, Tantangel said:

I would like to say that this system is rather interesting, but I'm unsure if it's standardized or not, and if it's not it would be great to restructure it slightly along with a few other ideas I've thought of. The reason I mention standardizing is the fact that it seems the rewards are so wildly different based off each Imm who rewards them.

This is the opening sentences of your first post. You talk about standardization. Which is indeed the main problem with the RP system. Then you go on with your suggestions that have very little to do with standardization. Actually, even in this summary of yours, you mention nothing of standardization.

I myself have problems with that. I know others have too. You get low and delayed rewards for incredible pieces and then high and fast rewards for some generic ones. 

Standardization is the biggest problem with this game. Be it for descriptions, cabal induction, cabal promotions or rewards of any kind.... you will always face a human on the other end, who must judge you. Many times this human who will be doing the judging, will have lower/higher capabilities than your own and thus lower/higher standards. Be it for PK or RP. They will often be biased because they like/dislike you, or have characters that are your allies/enemies. Or they will simply be inactive.

Because that's how humans are. Imperfect, emotional, biased, ego-istical, and often bored or busy with RL.

I try to be as unbiased as possible, but I often catch myself being biased, especially when I see a post from Wade :) /joke

Edited

40 minutes ago, f0xx said:

They will often be biased because they like/dislike you, or have characters that are your allies/enemies.

 

Really have to disagree with you. Immortals have been fired for that kind of behavior. Ulmusdorn and Tempirion do a large portion of the rewarding, and I've not known either of them to do such things. If they did, I would get -10 RP for all of my logs. :P

2 hours ago, Wade said:

3 hours ago, Ulmusdorn said:

I think you need to sit down and think about what your vision of RP points should be and how you're using/accruing them.

Oh I have. It's the reason I haven't played in quite some time. 

And by that, I take it it's what your vision of RP points should be rather than how you're using/accruing them.  Because gaining them is absolute cake.

 

1 hour ago, Tantangel said:

Honestly it's probably going to be the reason that it's hard to accrue them quickly. People are going to aim for the necklace first in most cases. After that it's probably going to be either an edge or spell to add. I've been thinking about it seriously because it sounds amazing. A new room is great though because it's permanent seeming. I kind of wish the pets were cheaper though. I see RP points as a income so to speak. I'm making an average of 5 every day or three. Go to the bazaar to see if I can get the most bang for my buck. RP pet that seems great is 60 points. I'm not going to get it because I'd need at least 12 days to gain that back. Add to the fact my new laptop loves to just shut off after being unplugged for 30 minutes and if I didn't have my logger on, I just lost a chance to post it. I like to play laying down and the cord is about 3" short to enjoy it and I found that out the hard way with the logger. I don't even care about the spells you can add, I'd rather see more RP events going on because that's far more rewarding than most other things. 

As far as behavioral studies, there are a ton. It mostly comes down to people hating change. You fear what you don't understand or know, so it usually results into a negative connotation. It's an unfortunate part of reality, but that happens for everything. 

The point of the thread is still valid, and honestly @f0xx, whether your opinion was for our against, I wouldn't mind reading it. Especially if it's constructive. @Wade if you can tweak what it is you would like to see added, I'd be interested as well. If all you're going to state is it's fine as is, that's fine too. I just fell that adding more ways to gain RP points would not only see a rise in everyone else's ability to roleplay, but it gives newer players coming in to also get a jump on things so they're not just wondering what the stats of an item is, they can now get identify and learn alone. The most amount of players online with me at the same time is about 10. For a good chunk I'm alone and that to me is awful and probably deters people coming here to play. After all, the spells posted to add don't affect someone in PK. You can't use them offensively, I see them merely as aids and added benefits for all players alike.

 

I find that people having trouble accruing RP points difficult to believe.  Maybe that's bias because I really only see things from my point of view.  But my two current characters both have on average of 1 RP per hour played (~50h and ~30h respectively) and I've done really nothing outside write a history and pop off a journal or two.  Prior to that, one had 500+, again, for doing really nothing extra.  That was with 900+ hours, 200 of those before they were implemented.  I don't like writing notes/journals for the sake of "RP farming."  I write notes occasionally and if RP points come of it, so be it.  And while I understand (and use) journals, I see that as a way to progress my character when I do write them, and that's infrequent.  Besides, I think that the Imms can tell the difference anyway between when you're trying to farm and writing for the RP.  I don't (or very rarely) post logs on prayer.  Those I do are primarily so that others can get the RP from our interaction.

As for logging, you can try getting into the habit of replay tells/says/etc.  Just copy/paste from there.

Or do like I do and set up a trigger that automatically starts to log your session every time you connect.  I even posted once on how I set it up automatically and funnily enough, I was scoffed at because "there's a button you can press to log on most clients."  And yet, people still don't log or forget to do it.

Or set up an alias.

#ALIAS quit {#log %time();scroll 0;replay tells;replay says;#send quit;#log}

Copy, paste in prayer, done.

And if you don't post immediately, you've logged that last little bit.

So yeah, what I'm trying to say is that with RP accumulation, I don't take a very active stance.  I'm quite lazy, actually.  But I still get my fair share with relative ease.  I can only imagine what my RP pool would look like if I did try to actively accumulate RP points.  Point is, they're easy to accumulate.

Now what I find a little funny is that you state RP's are difficult to accrue quickly, and in your original post you suggest that item costs would increase due to more RP gain.  There's some delicious irony in that.

 

1 minute ago, Tantangel said:

@f0xx also adding in the ability to get RP points from killing a member of the opposing Cabal if they're an Elder or higher. It could be added to include Coup.

Gaining RP points for PK is a little counter-intuitive, don't you think?  Not to mention that with a coup, you're already rewarded with a higher cabal position.

 

I believe that your heart is in the right spot with the RP gain per level from 30, but I'm not sure if that's really a solution other than to give players RP's basically for doing nothing.

When people are together, RP tends to come forth, that's is true.  Part of the reason 50's get RP's for ranking lowbies is to help with interactions between the two groups.  To get them together.  Sub 50 already have reasons to interact and come together in that they're ranking themselves.  Great.  If an Imm watches or RP logs submitted while ranking, they can get RP points from it.

Level 50's however, don't have to rank, much less have to rank lowbies.  A lot didn't because they were "too busy" with whatever they were doing, be it gathering equipment or sitting on their laurels, and so there was little to no interaction.  Implement RP gain for 50's per level they helped gain and suddenly you are inundated with level 50 characters approaching you to help you to pinn.  That's a win right there.

 

Now, as for the additional skills gained from RP points in the bazaar ... why?  I mean, I understand why, but .... why?

The four skills you can buy in the bazaar (locate object, identify, tarot and comprehend languages) offer little to no PK bonus and in comes cases, offer RP opportunities.  Or in the case of comprehend languages, ability to understand.  Also, getting items that give you the abilities of these four are few and far between while things like invis and detect invis and recall are common.

If you allowed esuna, cure light or any other suggested (though your suggested prices are a little low, IMO), you give people a huge boost to PK ability.  Especially those two mentioned.  Yes, you'll likely argue that you can buy edges and that offers PK bonuses, and I can't argue that.  But it's that they offer bonuses already that the other spells aren't needed.  They're also non-standard bonuses.  You've got +mana/hitgain, +carry capacity (both weight and number), and so on.   You're also taking away from the classes that those spells are more or less unique to.  Even with just the cure light, an invoker benefits greatly.  Word of recall for any class on tap?  Potions perish for a reason.  Mastered teleport offers significantly safer travel than popping a pill.

But why stop there?  Why just spells?  Let's allow trip and bash to be bought.  I'm sure some clerics/mages would love to lag you with those.  FG Clerics especially.  Speaking of mages getting shafted with bought spells, what of the suggestion for lowering your THAC0 (to a maximum of -10 [warriors/blademasters], maybe)?  Or how about second attack for 10 RP, third for 20 and fourth for 40?  Shield block?  Dodge?

I don't think that adding more skills/spells to the bazaar is the right direction to go in.

 

So with that, I too, agree with Wade saying that RP points should be kept primarily for RP and the PK bonuses to a minimum.

 

But I agree there should be a help file for showrp, perhaps lumped in with the RP help file.  Feel free to write one and submit it on prayer.  Who knows.  It might be implemented.

I'll just remind people that this is here. https://theforsakenlands.com/community/topic/34557-imp-thread-help-less/

Sorry @f0xx, I got off on the standardizing points thinking that maybe there wasn't already a system in place. @Ulmusdorn said there was already one in place, which is why I dropped it off in the rehash. 

I do agree on the rewards of it coming at odd frequency, but I also know people have real lives and such.

The spells added were just thoughts more than anything else. You can offer other things. Ventriloquist for Bards could easily be added for it. That one is usually pretty entertaining. But going off the deep end of adding bash/trip? I know they were extremes and you were joking, but they would turn the balance and end the game period. There would be no more players because we'd all hate logging in just to get tooled over by someone who can heal/gate/bash/haymaker/dispel magic and so on. Recall isn't that bad and doesn't really have an affect on PK in any way for me though. I carry literally 3 potions and that's all at pretty much any given time. I've had 8 go poof on me and the last one was probably a year ago. The one before that was 2007 when I last actively played  almost daily. 

I hate the fact that I'm just now discovering 'Replay' to see all of whichever I was talking with. I don't like posting logs in Prayer because I hate editing them. The only ways I have ever been able to get them were logs others post, a log of mine, and Journals. I log on in the middle of the night to play because that's the time I get to play the game most, and I'm lucky to see another person to interact with. My luck with anything else sucks. 

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  1. positive rp * an Immortal 07/07/2017 * Journal: 

  2. positive rp * an Immortal 07/08/2017 * Journal: 

  3. positive rp * an Immortal 07/08/2017 * Journal: 

  4. positive rp * an Immortal 07/08/2017 * Forum Log:

  5. positive rp * an Immortal 07/10/2017 * Journal: 

  6. positive rp * an Immortal 07/12/2017 * Great History. Well Done.

  7. positive rp * an Immortal 07/14/2017 * Journal: 

  8. positive rp * an Immortal 07/14/2017 * Journal: 

  9. positive rp * an Immortal 07/14/2017 * Forum Log:

 10. positive rp * an Immortal 07/15/2017 * Journal: 

 11. positive rp * an Immortal 07/16/2017 * Journal: 

 12. positive rp * an Immortal 07/17/2017 * Journal: 

 13. positive rp * an Immortal 07/19/2017 * Journal 

 14. positive rp * an Immortal 07/20/2017 * Journal: 

 15. positive rp * an Immortal 07/20/2017 * Journal: 

 16. positive rp * an Immortal 07/21/2017 * Journal: 

 17. positive rp * an Immortal 07/22/2017 * Journal:

If I had known the command of it before, I'd actually be able to tell what I got them for randomly for seemingly nothing on my character a year ago. I didn't log anything and had maybe 5 journals and an application. Some people are always going to get them far easier than I do, that's fine and understandable. The reason for the increase in prices was if and only if the standardizing along with other changes were made. When I do find another player though, I'm all for interactions with them, but that's not always the case for me either. Maybe now that I do know there's a command, I'll have to set a buffer though for every 'says' since I tried it and it kicked me out of the game and erased that information. 

As for logging, I do in 98% of the cases, but due to a new laptop loving to shut down after being unplugged for 30 minutes I restart and I just lost everything if I don't do it immediately. In cases of my normal game time most of my logs look like I'm beating off to porn because I'm farming for gold, CPs, or consumables. I have seen two Imms online and visible in the last month during my time for a brief moment and I understand RL gets in the way of such things so I don't get annoyed about it. The only time I'm writing journals is typically after I train, or about the half way mark of being finished with it. to help me spark up more interest in keeping them. My latest character I think I've done the most for in terms of writing, but that's mostly because I want a solid background and future heading for the character so that I can solidify myself in that RP and to let Imms get a good idea about them too. In my case with my current character It's close to 1RP point for every hour played, but I'm sure some people get a lot less.

If I had gotten over 500+ points, I'd be hitting up every plot possible and try to come up with my own. But I do thank you and F0xx for actually putting in constructive criticism into your last posts. I do tend to write in large chunks, which can be hard to follow for many people. I will need to try and remember to 'replay' instead of 'reply' though to check those things before quitting. It is good to see your expanded thoughts on the idea itself and not just a very brief 'it sucks ass' post. So thank you again.

31 minutes ago, Tantangel said:

Recall isn't that bad and doesn't really have an affect on PK in any way

I will just stop here and use this as an example.

If you don't have a recall spell, you must quaff a potion. In order to *reliably *quaff a potion, you must not be blind, and you must not be in combat.

Being able to cast recall, while in combat and blind, is huge boost to survivability. It's something that should stay reserved only to mages IMO.

Giving recall to melees is similar to giving dodge/two handed to an invoker - a huge buff in survivabilty.

 

1 hour ago, Tantangel said:

If I had gotten over 500+ points, I'd be hitting up every plot possible and try to come up with my own.

I'll fix that for you:

Quote

I'll be hitting up every plot possible and try to come up with my own, so I can get over 500+.

1 hour ago, Tantangel said:

The spells added were just thoughts more than anything else. You can offer other things. Ventriloquist for Bards could easily be added for it. That one is usually pretty entertaining. But going off the deep end of adding bash/trip? I know they were extremes and you were joking, but they would turn the balance and end the game period. There would be no more players because we'd all hate logging in just to get tooled over by someone who can heal/gate/bash/haymaker/dispel magic and so on. Recall isn't that bad and doesn't really have an affect on PK in any way for me though. I carry literally 3 potions and that's all at pretty much any given time. I've had 8 go poof on me and the last one was probably a year ago. The one before that was 2007 when I last actively played  almost daily.

 

Exactly.  Sometimes the best way to see an imbalance is to go to the extremes.  It wasn't a joke so much as to illustrate a point: where's the line?

Spells and skills can be broken down into four basic groups: offensive, defensive, restorative and utility (other).  Adding the ability for any class to have access to any of the first three is a serious undertaking in balance, be it something as seemingly minor as second attack, armor bless or something as potentially imbalancing as cure  and bash.  As such, it's unlikely that it would be wise to allow [unlimited] access to these to all classes.

Utilities on the other hand, have a bit more leeway, though the question remains: where's the line?  Detect invis?  Word?   Portal?  Some are obviously more powerful than others.  But even the ones that appear mundane could have larger, unintended repercussions.  Now this will inevitably return to consumables, both perishable and not.  We've got detect invis pills, after all.  Armor and shield.  Recall potions.  No portal consumables, though.  Fortunately.  That's a good place to start, but it's not the whole story.  What happens when we effectively put them on tap?  The fact that consumables can be lost, stolen or otherwise removed from your person leaves you in dire straights.  Foxx makes an excellent point with recalls as well, and works for a strong conclusion to my point.

And then there's the spells/skills that really don't lend anything to, well, anything, such as locate object, identify, lore and ventriloquate.  Handy to have, but not critical to your survival.  Although the RP value for some like ventriloquate I think would make a fine addition.

 

That aside:

I'd request to see lore added to the bazaar.  Locate object is nice, true, but lore gives easy access to which area the object actually is in and helps more when the unfamiliar object is in your hands, especially if rare/unique.

 

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I'll be hitting up every plot possible and try to come up with my own, so I can get over 500+.

... good fix, Foxx.

I would like to say that I use locate object quite a bit in pvp, it's not quite as harmless as you think to hand it out willy nilly.

And I've used know alignment to the same effect.  While yes, it does give you information, it does little beyond that.  Like looking at what someone's wearing and seeing they have Adeptus's Face to decide whether to dirt kick or not.

I've used locate object to track an enemy. Doesn't always work, but it does provide information that could reveal their location if they are not careful.

6 hours ago, Magick said:

But why stop there?  Why just spells?  Let's allow trip and bash to be bought.  I'm sure some clerics/mages would love to lag you with those.  FG Clerics especially.  Speaking of mages getting shafted with bought spells, what of the suggestion for lowering your THAC0 (to a maximum of -10 [warriors/blademasters], maybe)?  Or how about second attack for 10 RP, third for 20 and fourth for 40?  Shield block?  Dodge?

You are on to something. Most spellforged gear I have seen is always about giving spells, but what about skills?

What a about some boots of 33% dodge? Or gauntlets of enhanced damage 20%? Or eye patch of dirt kick 33%? Or palderons of bash 50%? I bet Necros would love to have access to bash.

Spellforged items are putting Warmasters further behind the 8-ball when going against their counterparts in other cabals. They have access to spell-forged items that give extremely useful spells and are only getting more beneficial as new areas and items are implemented. Boots of Stomping, for instance, are HUGE for a non-giant melee. I'm sure Kelmi would love to have a pair of these he could actually use. Mask of Discord and Rod of Time are both extremely valuable items that a Warmaster can't take advantage of.

Rough life for a WM...

Skillforged items would be a nice improvement for mages.

However, hybrids will take advantage so be prepared if you get what you ask for.

I think a lot of thought would have to go into what types of items were best for what types of skills, in order to keep the balance.

Do we want crusaders with shield-block? Druids with dual parry? Shaman with strangle?

Items that grant skills would have to be items that do not doubly benefit existing power houses. Melees and hybrids rely on hit and dam, hit and dam are easiest to stack in certain locations; fingers, neck, wrists. I would place defensive skillforges in these areas to dissuade abuse by making them choose offense or defense.

Not seeing an easy path here, but maybe Erelei has a better vantage point.

6 minutes ago, Fool_Hardy said:

However, hybrids will take advantage so be prepared if you get what you ask for.

Do we want crusaders with shield-block? Druids with dual parry? Shaman with strangle?

What's great is the staff can create items that certain classes and/or races can't use.  I'm sure you've seen:

Object 'icepick ice pick dagger' is type weapon, material ice.

Extra flags: glow.

Weight is 1, value is 1630, level is 28.

Weapon type is dagger.

Damage is 5d8 (average 22).

Affects damroll by 2.

Affects str by -1.

You have a feeling the following races can't use it:

none

 

Why not something like:

Shield of Malleable Defense

Adds skill Shield Block 25%

You have a feeling that the following classes can't use it:

Crusaders

Invokers

Skillforged items now?  Really?  From a fantasy perspective, it's quite easy to see the RP sense/mechanics behind a spellforged item.  I view them as somewhat similar to how scrolls/staves/wands are created.  I really don't see how one imbues boots with the ability to teach the wearer how to kick dirt.  However boots that have the words to a "blind" spell on them is easy to perceive.

Take a walk through the D&D wonderous item compendium some time.  There's all sorts of things in there like that.  Gloves of Arrow Snatching.  Boots of Dancing.  Greater Bracers of Archery.  Vest of Escape.  Items that either give an ability that you don't normally have (even without the prerequisites), or that grant a boost to an ability, though the latter is common enough in FL currently.  Or both.

Granted, it's easier to envision an item granting a spell rather than a skill, but considering the fantasy setting, anything is possible.  Take your boots of dirt kick for example.  No, it won't teach you how to dirt kick, but what if it does it on its own?  The player entering the command is irrelevant.

I can't say I think that skillforged items are a particularly good idea.  But it's certainly an option, albeit one that would require a ton of talk about balance.

It is a tough dilemma... I am not even sure I agree with all the spellforged items out there.

I don't think the answer to game balance is to give more abilities to everyone whether it be through items or consumables or edges.

I think that for better balance stuff should actually be taken away, and classes should be balanced against each other just with what they have as skills/spells.

Then I think race combos should be balanced against each other not only by stats (which is already so) but with special abilities/perks to make "weaker" combos more viable.

Lastly I don't think non rares should have been buffed, I think rares and uniques should have been nerfed. The recent prevalence of god suits on power combos, combined with the declining playerbase, is what imbalanced the game in my opinion.

10 hours ago, f0xx said:

I'll be hitting up every plot possible and try to come up with my own, so I can get over 500+.

Although it is more accurate to state such, I've RP'd plenty with people and tried to interject myself into other intriguing characters on top of developing my characters. It's probably going to factor heavily into people who post logs and those who get snooped on which is fine and I understand why that'll be the go to response for most who do get them quite frequently. The downside to the argument is that this statement doesn't fit in with newbie friendly to me and the reason why is I believe that severely hindering a new player by a hoarding knowledge because people don't feel they should be given a helping hand. I understand it's a privilege and not a right, but until most recently 90% of people who do play have seemed to be close lipped which I believe has hurt the game far more than helped. I'm not even stating it for me in particular because I can usually whip out a log quickly, but I'm more into helping those newer be able to get a leg up on the game. I still remember the first time I played, and it was horrible. If it weren't for the fact that I played with a friend from school, I would've just stopped. There were an average of 35 people on at most times though. How many are there now? 

As for word of recall, it was more of a suggestion. The last time I had issues with blind and recall was when people could still summon you to a room with no exits/locked doors. I can run blinded pretty easily and I carry a lot of gyvel potions just in case. If you set up an alias to quaff a potion in battle, if you have 5 you're almost guaranteed to succeed at least once. Not to mention the fact there's an item that will send you from across the world to a specific point. Then the gatestone that if you're lucky enough to have timed it right, will get you out of the situation wiggly too. Then a couple bridges of sorts from the eastern side will take you almost completely to the far western part as well. I can get away easily from most situations, it was more of a suggestion for new players more so than for myself. 

Haggle would be great to have on there too by those measures. 2 classes don't get it, and if you're playing them it sucks, but it's doable. 

Spellforged items don't bug me because it means you'll have to sacrifice something in order to hold onto it. And if you keep that item and something that gives you hit/dam, you're sacrificing a rare slot to keep it. If you have doublesheath you won't need to sacrifice weapon spots typically or if you play a monk who wont need any. I've thought about skillforged items, but there are few non essential skills. Lore being one of them which actually makes it a great idea to add in. 

Sure backpacks get stolen, but buy 5 of them and chances are the one that has anything in it wasn't touched, especially if you poison yourself when going through towns. So far though it seems ventriloquist and lore seem to be the popular votes in so far, any more recommendations to add that are actually realistic and not trying to go to an extreme that will never happen?

PIck Locks ☆

13 hours ago, Fireman said:

I've used locate object to track an enemy. Doesn't always work, but it does provide information that could reveal their location if they are not careful.

Or if they're bleeding. Bleed + locate object is extremely useful for tracking. 

Magical springs can be located too, heck if it's someone who I really don't like I'll give them heavy junk items that they'll normally drop while resting up. 

Corpses, gold, all sorts of stuff can be located. 

I feel like people underestimate how useful locate object is.

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