Moving Away from IMM-Permission Cabal Inductions and Promotions

Trick, I like your additions. I feel like the core of the idea is standardizing and automating clan to cabal entrance. Beyond that, I think we need to explore further. I do agree, however, that mortal leaders of cabals should have absolute control.

I think that it's a great idea for more player interaction (and thus responsibility) at the E and L ranks.  Let the players shape and make mistakes running the cabals.  In the conflicting interpretations and mistakes, I think it would create a richer and more believable environment. 

I would still see cabal IMMs (and IMMs in general) holding veto powers over any decision passed.  This would be a check to prevent gross deviations from rp or abuse.  It also doesn't prevent them from being a divine whisper in players ears to push/pull them where the IMM wants them to go as well.

When a mortal leader is installed, they should be imparted with guidelines from the cabal IMM on what are reasonable criteria for moving up or demoting ranks.  At the same time, Ls and Es should be held to a requirement of time.  This will prevent the ranks from stagnating from waiting for other players who are busy with RL stuff or other projects.

4 hours ago, Trick said:

 

I've had an elder in every cabal except Savant and a Leader in one. I rarely feel like I am in charge of anything. I've asked to see that clan quest list as an Elder and Leader in a clan and was told its an IMM only privilege. Like I said above, these positions don't really "mean" shit. What are the things you get from these positions? You get to be called whatever nifty little title goes with it, you get that position's cabal power(the only perk), and you get blamed for everything that happens beneath your level. IE: You're Knight Elder and Knight Member gangs Nexus Veteran and kills him, Knight Elder is blamed for not "appropriately teaching the Commandments" and loses CPs for it. Great.. Now I am being held responsible for someone I have no real authority to manage.( Knight was used as an example.)

Clan Elders and Leaders DO have access to clan list, as well as clan promote and demote. (The demote may only be Leader.)

I, as Zoichan, was given MUCH control over Tribunal. But that mainly happened because I TOOK control of Tribunal. I promoted clan members, (I also demoted clan members for various reasons including drinking on the job, which was always interesting,) I gave out Exams. I didn't wait on the IMM to do it. When I gave an exam, I wrote a report, and sent my recommendation to the Immortals, and typically within a day they were applying.

I think Elders and Leaders have a lot of power, they just fail to take control of it. The mortal Leader of a Cabal should make the life of the IMM much easier.

I loved the Squire system back in the day with Knights.

You'd have to butter up and prove yourself to a Knight to be brought into the fold.

On 6/11/2016 at 3:34 AM, Naruthiron said:

My cabal standards are really easy, and kind of exactly how a Knight should act, but people somehow take a long time to reach them. From experience, it's not really a lack of Imm (watcher being an exception. Cabal is cursed) but a lack on the player side. Investment stays pretty low. I once had a character with over 50 clan quests at 30. I can't get 50s to break 1/4 of that and wonder why I don't let them in.

Cabals are not meant to be guarantees.

I'm not salty, and I don't hold any fault or grudge against players. But I've never once had a player ask me why I'm not letting them apply without them inventing their own reasons to accuse me of less-than-honorable conduct because they didn't get a chance to apply or, god forbid, T.

I'll do it.

2 hours ago, Aulian said:

 

I'll do it.

I just about offered the same proposal but I've been away sooooo long.

How about somethin akin to this @Mali

V->T = 30 hours played, auto promote

T->E = 100 hours played, vote to cabal, cabal imm can still veto

E->L = imm promo only

yeah I like it.

I see it potentially bringing players back and definitely increasing activity in the MUD overall. When players started losing control of their character's destiny is when the game started downhill. There were many other things combined...staff changes, Viri leaving, etc...

IMMs taking control of the cabals which is arguably the largest part about being 50 had some benefits. Overall "class" and skill of players has never been higher, but it's come at a cost. I think relinquishing back some of the control would be a great start to trying to revive this place.

Even in the short time that I've been an immortal, I can see the huge problem in letting players run clans. Most often, and this is not meant to be a slight towards anyone, the characters not getting clan promotions or the chance to apply for their cabal of choice are the same characters that haven't done much to earn it (again, not intended to offend - but rather to point out something that's been ignored). Promotions and inductions are never meant to be a promise just because of time spent logged in (outside lower cabal promotions). Emulate the beliefs which are at the foundation of each clan/cabal. 

Watcher, as an example, has been a problem in the past. Having a Watcher Immortal that has a lasting career as such has been a routine problem I'm sure everyone's noticed. Not the other cabals, though. 

Speaking strictly as a player, the first place I look when trying to determine why I don't have something I think I should always starts at the same place. Me. Maybe this will change somewhere in the future, when I am running a cabal. We'll wait and see on that one. For now, though... I should resume my banishment to the building side of the house. Awaaaaaaaaay!

45 minutes ago, Lloth said:

Even in the short time that I've been an immortal, I can see the huge problem in letting players run clans. Most often, and this is not meant to be a slight towards anyone, the characters not getting clan promotions or the chance to apply for their cabal of choice are the same characters that haven't done much to earn it (again, not intended to offend - but rather to point out something that's been ignored). **Promotions and inductions are never meant to be a promise just because of time spent logged in **(outside lower cabal promotions). Emulate the beliefs which are at the foundation of each clan/cabal. 

Watcher, as an example, has been a problem in the past. Having a Watcher Immortal that has a lasting career as such has been a routine problem I'm sure everyone's noticed. Not the other cabals, though. 

Speaking strictly as a player, the first place I look when trying to determine why I don't have something I think I should always starts at the same place. Me. Maybe this will change somewhere in the future, when I am running a cabal. We'll wait and see on that one. For now, though... I should resume my banishment to the building side of the house. Awaaaaaaaaay!

PREFACE:  I always seem to offend people/staff with my point of view and come across like I have a grudge or something when I really, really don't. This is just my philosophy on MUDs, society, government/administration, and control...all wrapped into a singular context lol

These are the two issues I have with this.  The ONLY reason the player ran cabals got taken away was because of the times when we had 50ish players running around there would be groups of them getting into cabals, filling them up, and just having an OOCfest. I remember distinctly when it happened and I was as vocal back then about it as I still am. I was saying when we still had 40-50ish people playing that this would start to slowly kill this game. Here we are now, not solely just because of that, but a large part it did play....We barely have 5 people on now. This game was ran with far fewer IMM per player than it is now and would be very easily managed/monitored to allow players to develop and create their own world and destiny instead of just being little puppets on a stage to have the iMMs pull at their strings when they feel like it.

Cabal promotions WERE MEANT to be more or less a promise on time. That's how they were coded and are STILL coded that way.  Spend the time, send the vote, and let the cabal decide. Not just one imm who has a different definition on earn than the next imm, or even the players in general. To earn something you must know what the prerequisites are.  What are they? No one seems to know. IMMs judge it based on whatever they feel is right in the moment, so how are we to even know what to do? These paradoxical questions are exactly why in a MUD, a world that should be extremely dynamic and shaped by its citizens (players)...political houses ran by players...plots initiated and developed by players. IMMs exist to facilitate and assist players in creating the world inside a MUD.

A player gets into a cabal, has cabal requirements and time requirements to get promoted. They meet them and get to V. They see more time requirements, more cabal requirements, an RP point requirement...they meet ALL of those...then what?  Where is the cabal imm requirement? It doesn't exist...and that is a problem. Both because it doesn't exist and because it was never meant to exist in the first place. So, something should change, do we not at least all agree on that? If you want someone to earn something, they should have a roadmap on HOW to earn it.

Which brings me to the final point...who are any of you to tell someone what they've earned in a game? I'm not trying to be snarky or mean, I'm just saying this is was started to be a  game for the players (the point of any MUD) and we've lost sight of that. It's not a game for the IMMs to make people jump through hoops for rewards when they feel like someone's earned it finally.  I've suggested a very fair, hybrid system of sorts that allows E/L  (the only slots that are coded to only have a certain number) be more or less imm controlled, but at least in the case of E player initiated.

An "Us vs Them" opinion is holding you back. We don't pull strings. Everything I've seen is really the opposite. Global RP? Players keep it up (we do have to push it along every now and then too). Character development? Players keep it up. Cabal warfare? Players keep it up. History? Players keep it up. ***Setting the pace for character progression by actively displaying the qualities of their chosen affiliation? ***Players keep it up.

There are, of course, exceptions. Sometimes the hours spent productively, and actively developing the character and pushing the affiliation's goals, get overlooked. Nobody's perfect. I hate to take that stance, because an imperfect solution is not the correct solution. That said, there are several OOC rings through facebook, AIM, and good old fashioned phones. We see the affects of those every single day. Some people may think they're slick, but we see it all. Letting friends manage friends more than they can already... that's not a good idea.

As it has been mentioned before, Clan L and E players can recruit and promote within the clan. Beyond that, I can't see a real reason to take it out of IMM hands.

This is exactly what I hated seeing it get changed to begin with. It's human nature that once you've been given power, you can't let go of it.  It can't be argued any other way then us vs them since it quite literally is one set of a demographic being "controlled" by another demographic.  

I don't see the staff ever letting go of their grip, and in all honestly, that's fine.  You guys "own" the games, it your way or the highway. Your game, your rules.  I've just had to sit by with everyone else, IMMs included, and watch this game dwindle down to almost nothing....and yet still we are afraid to give the power back to the players and see if that doesn't help? What does the staff lose? 

My argument on this matter notwithstanding I've remained a player here, for better or worse, and will always continue to be until we shut the doors. But it's VERY obvious that there needs to be some sort of uniformity in this game when it comes to cabal progression.  You get a guy who gets into the cabal, kills the cabal's enemies, RPs consistently, gets to V and then sits there for 50 or 60 hours wondering what he has to do? That should not happen. And yet it does, repeatedly. 

That's not a stab at anyone or the staff, it just simply is what happens. If we all agree it shouldn't, then let's find a way to stop it.

I said most of what I had to say and out of respect for the staff i won't continue because there's nowhere else to go with my argument that won't sound even more spiteful when it's really not, just the perspective of a player that's been here since almost the beginning and other than a few 6-8 month absences, has been here for pretty much everything and has always been one of the most active players consistently.  

P.S.   I'm sure there is still OOC influence...in a game that rarely has more than 5 people online.  Think about how crazy it would have been back with 50-60 people on.  Giving players back control of their own cabal progression will not suddenly create something that you already aren't defending against. So again, I just don't see how that argument has any merit anymore with a pbase this size and A LOT more mature than what it used to be.

6 hours ago, egreir said:

and yet still we are afraid to give the power back to the players and see if that doesn't help?

Don't be so naive mate. Even in a game of five, two will be so trashy and OOC that will drive the other three away.

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But it's VERY obvious that there needs to be some sort of uniformity in this game when it comes to cabal progression.

This I agree with. It's pretty annoying that cabals are run by different people, with different requirements, different biases, different time zones and whatnot. Hence why I think there should be a TEAM of IMMs that runs ALL cabals.

Tbh, I am fine with immortal run cabals. It's just the different standards and timezones that bothers me. It influences players extremely demotivational to be the only person in the cabal, fight against the and see your enemies still get promotions fasters than you. I know the reply that staffmembers are starting to write as they are reading this "But we cover afk IMMs and look over their cabal". Well sorry, but if that was true, there wouldn't be so much complaints about different entry/promotion speed.

Its not saying it wont exist because pbase is smaller.  Its saying because the pbase is so small its much easier to handle and manage.

This discussion comes up every 2-3 years.

Guys, we HAVE tried it. It was at the beginning of 2.0 and most of 2.0. 

Result: total failure.

Conclusion: it won't come back. We want a fair environment where your induction and / or promotion does not depend on which people you know ooc.

Most cabal Imms give their Es / Ls or even members quite a bit of power. Recommendations will get you a long way, UNLESS we've seen something that outweights a recommendation that the mortal cabal member is not aware of.

If you think you got overlooked, please ask on prayer. We'll explain the reasons to you.

The reason it failed no longer exists, though. You wont have 7 people completely filling a cabal because imms have to let them in there in the first place.  I was here for all of 2.0 and i remember the issues.  It had everything to do with pbase size and too much ooc to fight against.  Our pbase size has shrunk 90% while the staff size remains relatively the same.  It failed like 10 years ago....why arent we willing to try it again?

The reality is that 6 or 7 watchers have come and gone before any hit E or L. Almost all cabals at the moment are leaderless. In fact, i'm pretty sure Tassin has been the only watcher leader for the last 5 years.

In my past recent experience, even at the cabal L level, it is very difficult to start a war, change cabal politics, or even promote or demote players without Imm intervention.

I simply don't see how making this streamlined for the players prevents additional IMM monitoring. Abuse is still abuse, and may be moderated. Path from I to L should happen in an otherwise empty cabal way before a character gets bored, gives up, or deletes.

I am definately in favor of Imms RPing within cabals and helping guide the flow of what is expected in the cabal, especially insofar as helping cabal players make plots. The problem that I have identified is a sense of gatekeeping which is hindering character development and, more importantly, contributing to stagnation of cabal politics such that a cabal under one leader is virtually the same as under another.

That said, Tribunal did a good job of this recently with Iyorvin's illithid psi justice. That type of cabal change and development should be possible in all cabals. I would love to see a world where whether warmaster or savant leader is good or evil really changes the dynamic of the game.

There is an opportunity for player retention by making changes that clearly delineate cabal promotion progression and makes sure that any player can achieve these before the 200 hour mark.

It's a lost cause, Mali.