Kieran H-Drow BMG vs Thorgil Ogre War Knight

I agree it was stupid of him to use whip/axe but not for the reasons you stated.

He was trying to maximize his offensive output, not get involved in a long attrition war.

It was a mistake because even if he had 87876 attacks a round, he was not going to get a chance to land them.

So of course he may as well have been using a polearm, or any defensive weapon with the best dam rolls possible since basically he was allowed 1 attack per round.

edit: Trick if you are confused, scroll up to my previous post where I show the round where the BMG gets all his attacks off and then wimpys out on the first hit from thogril. that is what I was referring too.

You are insane lol. Read this log. He used diet TWO TIMES. And when he did, he began pulling 150 damage rounds (15% of max hp?) How can you read this log and not see he lost through a series of repeated mistakes, and not wimpy:

Barely kicked dirt

Missing ticks (regen was so bad)

Showed 0 respect for dispel magic, or bmg

 Combat rounds

Showed 0 respect for bmg attrition

Like maybe wimpy % can be set a bit high at 49%, but again this fight was lost because of poor choices, not because mages using wimpy

Quote

 

Thorgil kicks dirt in your eyes!

Thorgil's kicked dirt grazes you.

You can't see a thing!

Narifel: [71][===|===|===|---]

 

Someone dodges your attack.

You aren't bothered by someone's volley of arrows, and slightly grunt.

A projectile's pain scratches you.

Something's rays scratch you.

Someone's divine power MUTILATES you!

You block someone's attack with your shield.

Someone's shock decimates you!

You block someone's attack with your shield.

Someone's shock decimates you!

A necklace with a small red fist glimmers with a divine intensity.

You block someone's attack with your shield.

You block someone's attack with your shield.

Narifel: [62][===|===|==-|---]

co 'blind

You fail to blind someone.

Narifel: [62][===|===|==-|---]

 

Someone dodges your attack.

Someone blocks your attack and attempts to strike at the brief opening.

Someone's riposte mauls you.

Someone's divine power MUTILATES you!

Someone's divine power maims you!

Someone's shock devastates you!

You block someone's attack with your shield.

Someone's shock decimates you!

Someone's shock decimates you!

You can feel something dig into your body.

Someone's wrath grazes you.

Something sears your flesh with flames.

Someone's flaming bite scratches you.

You get caught in the barbs of Thorgil's belt!

Someone's steel barbs hit you.

You block someone's attack with your shield.

Narifel: [42][===|===|---|---]

 

You rub the dirt out of your eyes.

Thorgil writhes in agony as plague sores erupt from his skin.

Your sickness hits Thorgil.

Thorgil's Demon Hunter's sores vanish.

A werebeast writhes in agony as plague sores erupt from his skin.

Your sickness scratches a werebeast.

Thorgil has a few scratches. 

Narifel: [48][===|===|---|---]

fl

You flee from combat!

In this snippet, which is usually how all my exchanges with Thorgil went, I lost 303hp in two rounds. I get one spell off and have to run and heal. Every single time. I get an opportunity to cast once MAYBE twice if I had a more blocks in the first round.

I have advocated very heavily for wimpy to kick off after the round is complete, but having experienced this type of output, if I cast a spell that is two rounds of lag, I'm dead. That's it. I'm done. 

Anonymous poster hash: e8701...1d9

For the record I never said he lost because of wimpy.

If you want my opinion on the overall log I would say Thogril lost because he overextended and played dumb, I do not think wimpy was the deciding factor here, but it was still 1 of many factors.

Who knows how much more damage he would have taken if he wasn't allowed to flee before the round ended, all we can do is speculate.

I am ONLY talking about wimpy, and how it is broken.

Ok tarako. I counted 36 combat rounds in that log, 3 of them the bmg took 100 damage or more.

So please, tell me again how this mage took 10%-15% of his max HP a round? laughable exaggeration!

You're yelling about my bias, but this isn't bias. Wimpy right now is 100% necessary. If you can legitimately say that it is fair that a mage has to sit still, potentially soaking up 30% of their hp t4o a nearly 0 lag combat round that you do not get a response to, you're nuts. 

And a bmg is absolutely the best possible defense a mage could ever get. Look at mages with one, or two defenses.

So did the bmg take 10 or 15 % of their max HP in damage a round or not? Before we change the subject please confirm the answer to this question ;) (ps. I already know the answer)

So again you flat out refuse to see my point. Let me try one more time to express it. I will use short sentences so it's easy to follow.

Yes, melee have had an advantage for quite some time.

Yes, I am glad the staff is finally toning down EQ.

No, I do not believe that EVERY mage is and has been unplayable.

No, I do not believe wimpy is the answer.

Yes, I believe wimpy is a broken mechanic being abused in a way it was not intended.

No, I do not believe murder is a guaranteed win,

No, I do not believe murder has no counterplay.

No, I do not think mages have to sit still and let themselves be killed.

https://pastebin.com/cNtH3GU7

Psi vs lotus scourge. Missed the first bit, but it's just them landing poison and 2 combat rounds. In this log I have done everything I could to him as a psi, using a staff for defense, and around 800 magic ac. (I realize hp is low, but I was testing ac based builds)

Look at my total defense, and I wasn't dirted a single time. So you're telling me I should have to soak up potentially 50% of my hp before being given a chance to flee at all. And when I do, they can just walk west and do it again? How can you possibly be saying I'm the one who's idiotic.

Why are you getting so mad dude..?

Kinda being a dick too.

Be nice guys or we'll unwrap the ban hammer and give you a break. Discuss politely.

The 

12 minutes ago, Manual Labour said:

So did the bmg take 10 or 15 % of their max HP in damage a round or not? Before we change the subject please confirm the answer to this question ;) (ps. I already know the answer)

How bad is your math? You counted yourself. 3 rounds above 100 damage (10% of his health is 103 hp) so two rounds at 10%and there was one at 14.6%. So yes, he did lose between 10 and 15% of his max hp. 

Seriously, you counted the rounds yourself and still forgot to maths?

so the other 33 rounds are meaningless? lmao

ok I finally see your point, no mage should ever take 10% of their max hp in a round, ever. Gotcha.

So you're saying he should be dealing 10 to 15% of his max hp every round?

Tarako. Once EQ is balanced do you think wimpy is still in an ok place? Also, in melee vs melee where one is much stronger than the other, is it ok or even needed that the weaker melee uses wimpy?

I understand you are saying wimpy is needed as a crutch to avoid damage which is too high currently, I get that.

Can you try and see my point of view though, which is an isolated view of wimpy and how it works?

I am not arguing the game is balanced, I am arguing that in a vacuum wimpy is broken and abusable, which is why I never use it, even when it would have benefited me.

For the record I have played 1 melee character in this environment, and I was not even OP.

I have been on the receiving end of this imbalance as much as you or anyone else.

I still think wimpy is broken and needs to be fixed. Again I am talking about wimpy in a vacuum.

I already said that I personally feel it's gonna be a bit too high after the balance. 49% is alot. But your solution isn't a good one at all. I've got logs of me missing out on killing at vamp because of wimpy, but  I blamed myself for not lagging instead of wimpy getting him out of combat. Until eq is balanced I don't think we need to support any big changes period, espescially ones that inherently affect mages much more

What is my solution in your opinion? The one that is not good at all.

You think that balancing wimpy is to lower the % HP it can be used, I do not think that addresses the core problem with wimpy.

Also, in your example of you blaming yourself for not lagging, what if you don't have the ability to lag?

The majority of what I perceive as wimpy abuse is being used by classes that cannot be lagged anyway.

edit: I am also curious how you will react to these big changes. I suspect they are going overboard with the saves nerfs and we are going to see the scales tip entirely the other way. How will you react to this? Will you say good, it's time for the era of the mage, or will you say no the balance went too far and is imbalanced the other way. Basically I am curious if you are advocating for true balance or revenge for mages?

Moar drama. :flood:

1 hour ago, Manual Labour said:

I am unsure what determines who gets to hit first in a given round but here we see the BMG goes first in round 2.

Fairly sure that's whoever is higher on the who list.  IE: the last person loaded into the MUD.

It's anecdotal at the moment though and I still need to do more testing.  Testing vs mobs, if I load in and start hunting, I've been seeing that I'll strike first.  After the are resets, I'm now attacking second.

You want wimpy to essentially wait til a full round of combat has passed, which means you can't be below 300 hp ever or you run a fair risk of just dying outright, much more likely if you have a vuln. That just isn't feasible man. I don't know how else to say it

I also believe combat rounds are determined by who initiates first, then order of appearance in the room for chatmies, not sure how mirror image interacts there

I'll drop my two cents here on this PK log. 

I'm not sure what weapon Thorgil's "divine power" was in this fight, but we know the primary hand is a whip.  And BMG's know whip.  That really cut into your offense here.  I understand that's your weapon lore, but you realized pretty quickly that locking him was a bad idea.  Fight BMG's with shield/axe or shield/flail or magic polearm and switch to dual weapons when it makes sense.  I've made macros in the past that effectively dual wield, murder, wear shield so you can get the best of both worlds - burst damage, then defense.  Thorgil was being very offensive here and that mentality lost the fight.  Had you been a bit more defensive to begin with  (use detect magic, look Kieran), you might have been able to time the fall of his force field or some other important spell.  With how easy he was dispelling you, nobody would have faulted you for getting out of there, getting another 10-15 mental saves and re-engaging.

When Kieran's wimpy was kicking, why not shoot him with magic arrows after he flees?  Two free damage shots with nothing taken to yourself.