Kieran H-Drow BMG vs Thorgil Ogre War Knight

25 minutes ago, Magick said:

Fairly sure that's whoever is higher on the who list.  IE: the last person loaded into the MUD.

It's anecdotal at the moment though and I still need to do more testing.  Testing vs mobs, if I load in and start hunting, I've been seeing that I'll strike first.  After the are resets, I'm now attacking second.

I'd be curious to hear the results.

25 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

You want wimpy to essentially wait til a full round of combat has passed, which means you can't be below 300 hp ever or you run a fair risk of just dying outright, much more likely if you have a vuln. That just isn't feasible man. I don't know how else to say it

Yes, I do not think it is balanced that a round is cut in half, ever. I believe there are better solutions to class balance. I also think you are exaggerating again which I will address later in my post.

22 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

I also believe combat rounds are determined by who initiates first, then order of appearance in the room for chatmies, not sure how mirror image interacts there

This is definitely not true, at least beyond the initial round. In the snippet I posted previously in this thread Thogril initiated combat and in the second round the BMG got all his attacks off first, then fled via wimpy (my big beef with it).

I am unsure if this is true or not but I have a hazy memory of dex having something to do with who attacks first in rounds subsequent to the first, or hell maybe it's luck?

Here is my issue Tarako, I believe you are being contradictory.

You have said flat out, "Mages Need Wimpy." Then in the same breath you said wimpy had nothing to so with this particular fight, and that the BMG won without it. So my question is, do ALL mages NEED wimpy? Do Necromancers need it? Do Invokers need it? Do BMGs need it? If the answer is no, then how do we decide who should get to use wimpy and who shouldn't because the classes that don't need it can abuse it. This is why I propose we balance classes and fix wimpy at the same time, I do not think wimpy needs to be used to help balance the game.

On melee chars I have taken huge damage in 1 round from Necros and Vokers, does that mean I should need wimpy to fight them and that it would be imbalanced if I couldn't use it?

I guess where we fundamentally disagree is on the question of "should rounds ever be interrupted", my stance is no, your stance is yes. We both want the same thing, wimpy aside, which is a more balanced game for all classes. But clearly we disagree on how to get there.

@Manual LabourReally glad you have the energy to argue these points of view for those of us on this side of the argument lol. Also nice job on lightning your tone on the matter. It makes a much more positive impact when we're all positive and treat each other with respect 👍

@TarakoThe other side of the argument that mages need them is mostly the result of other aspects of the game. Some of which have already been implemented and some of which is currently being worked on. Disclaimer: Imho ofcourse :)

My primary was a magical axe @Mmm Beer

Also I am hasted in a lot of this fight. I was extremely prepared.

How can anyone say the mage won without it when it saved him at least four murder rounds.  Which by his own admission is enough to almost kill him alone. Tarako buddy. You’re wrong. Just walk away lol

1 hour ago, 'tarako said:

I also believe combat rounds are determined by who initiates first, then order of appearance in the room for chatmies, not sure how mirror image interacts there

Thought it was simply dex-based.

That's my point. You're saying that you should be able to flee murder your wuay to easy wins by just being a glass cannon, and stacking hit dam with offensive weapons. How can you think that is a balanced solution. Ironically, I don't even use wimpy because I find it unreliable and it hurts me more than it helps because of how I play. You can see that in my log as well. What I am saying is there is a disturbing trend of everyone screaming nerf the second they disagree with something.

35 minutes ago, egreir said:

My primary was a magical axe @Mmm Beer

Sorry - it's hard to tell which hand is which in the log.  Definitely a great axe to use.  If you were high enough level to use haste, I think you would have gotten more mileage out of a detect magic and your very good chasing skills.  Don't forget that you have chasing skills which a lot of players (myself included) are merely average at.

2 minutes ago, Celerity said:

Thought it was simply dex-based.

Apparently it is based on login. Which is so ridiculous.

Wimpy is why the mage didn't die. It is not why thorgil lost. Thorgil lost by overextending. No amount of wimpy flees ever won a pk, it only makes losing harder.

4 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

What I am saying is there is a disturbing trend of everyone screaming nerf the second they disagree with something.

I don't think this is what is happening here. There have been complaints about wimpy for years now.

The issue is not that people think mages deserve to stand there and die.

The issue is not that people think melee should always have an advantage.

The issue IS that the majority of players here do not think it is good game design to have rounds interrupted midway through, when a normal flee cannot do this.

AGAIN, many of us believe balance can be achieved while also fixing wimpy.

I don't believe the majority feels that way is the issue.

Semantics.  I over extended because he wasn’t dying lol he wasn’t dying because wimpy saved him. He won fair and square I’m not arguing that.  Nothing he did was illegal. He caught be my surprise with the ice storm and then got off two big dancer strikes. Had those two big hits been parries dodges or blocked I could have escaped healed and fought on.  Like you said wimpy didn’t win him the fight perse but he should have been dead before it got there.

First of all, I do not use wimpy in PVP situations. So take this with a grain of salt.

I think wimpy should work mid round. I feel this way because I do not believe its intent is for PVP.

Wimpy saves lives in PVE as we solo this world much of the time.

If it were possible to modify the feature so that it would only fire against uncharmed mobs, then most people would have far less to complain about.

Honestly, the arguments I have read above are disheartening.

How can we expect the staff to implement a change that players will appreciate when we seek to dismiss counter arguments instead of looking for viable solutions that encompass everyone's concerns?

Be proactive in your posts instead of reactive and the best solutions will come.

41 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

I don't believe the majority feels that way is the issue.

I started a poll, let's see.

Imo the problem  with balance vs mages is when passive Dpr exceeds 10 % with 20% spikes.  In this log though the DPR is actually very tame from the warrior.  His passive output isnt out shining the active skills from the mage.  Actually the mage wins several rounds.  

Personally I think wimpy hurts more than helps.  But only when your opponent knows how, or has the patience to trap you into a pattern of flee murder.

4 hours ago, Kyzarius said:

I always love when people try to argue feeling vs code.

I always love when people think that just because someone has access to the code he always knows exactly what is going on.

If that was the case, all software would be perfect.

I don't think my post in the poll for Wimpy was well worded so my thoughts did not come through well. I'll try to better summarize here:

Melee's majority of damage is passive. They don't have to issue any command outside of an initial command to start the fight and off they go.

C/C's also can do passive damage, but against a melee, it will be minimal at best. Their damage is active, costs them lag, and means they will be taking damage at the same time. This is problematic and creates problems when we start to introduce double rounds, etc. for melee's as it allows them to hit large spikes that the C/C will have a hard time equalizing the output and maintaining any form of pressure.

I think this affects some of the C/C's less so (Psi, Lich, and Invoker) due to a combination of a stronger ability to spike damage and (what I think is probably most significant) passive damage. I do think that wimpy could use some modification as it does have its potential for abuse. However, I do think that when we think about who should have the advantage in purely a person fleeing vs. a person pursuing, the person fleeing should be able to get away more easily than the person can pursue. By that I mean, it should be slightly harder for someone to take down someone than it should be for someone to flee away to survive. Maybe we could adjust wimpy so that if wimpy fires off but the player initiates combat (attacks someone), there is a cooldown, maybe just 1 or 2 hours?

It is beyond me how the playerbise STILL, after almost 20 years now, doesn't realize what "murder" is.

Hint: It's not a double round.

6 hours ago, f0xx said:

It is beyond me how the playerbise STILL, after almost 20 years now, doesn't realize what "murder" is.

Hint: It's not a double round.

What I call a double round may be inaccurate and would appreciate clarification on what you mean by what "murder" is.