Locked Why guard qrace info so closely.

I mean we say in the past' date=' hell everyone will roll vamps, and it will be unfair. I do not see how, when every aggressive goody could run the avatar quest, or we end up with lvl 30 prae knight crusaders.[/quote']

Perhaps, but beyond the more hardcore RPers, who'll play the drow bmg when everyone can be a demon bmg just as easily? Would anyone actually remain a storm warrior, or would every one of them end up a crusader? Would we have any goods left who AREN'T Avatars or Saders, or evils left who aren't undead, demon, vamp or lich?

The answer? Yes, almost certainly we'd still have some people playing the more mundane combos... but the mundane combo would become the rarity, the qrace or qclass the norm. That would be a very, very bad thing.

well hell twins, look at the in game coded Vampire lore. The Masquerade, the feeling other undeads pain, the hierarchy built into the very skills, Elder Vampires! All this goes wasted, but has got to be one of the coolest things on the mud (I bet many reading this didnt even know elder vamps existed).

I mean we say in the past, hell everyone will roll vamps, and it will be unfair. I do not see how, when every aggressive goody could run the avatar quest, or we end up with lvl 30 prae knight crusaders.

Elder vamps are ridiculously hard to get.

I think there might have been 3 in the last 8-10 years I've played?

EDIT: And tahts just a big guess, because you cant actually ever tell.

The thing is why is it a bad thing that everyone is playing crazy stuff? Why is demon bmg better than drow? Why is Undead Thief better than Duergar? Why is Storm Crusader better than Storm Warrior?

Truth is once the new car smell wears off, it will be right back to FL.

Personally I would love to see everyone playing saders, and vamps, and things. It would add a new element to the pk that we have not had in years. Think about if you had PK matchups for classes that previously where RARELY about. How often do you see a Demon DK around at the same time as an elf psi? How often do you see a storm sader running around fighting Vampires. It really does not happen terribly often. Usually you have a vamp, then a sader, then 2 demons, one of which rage deletes because they hate getting raped all the time. Then we wait another 3 months.

Or my personal favorite:

"Your app has been denied because there is already a demon dk." Never mind the fact that particular character has not logged on in 4-5 months, I still can't get it because there is one already. THAT is something I can't stand in the least.

In all reality I don't think it will influence it too heavily. Some people are undoubtedly going to hate how a vamp plays, and some people are going to hate the amount of effort a sader requires (more than any other class for sure). These people, along with everyone else who gets tired of playing a class after a bit, will continue playing regular combos.

I feel confident that I can get any quest race/class I go after. I have the RP and pk ability to warrant going after it. Most of the reason I don't is there are 1-2 people trying for it, or there is already one who exists for months (Anyone remember Mephisoleer? Guy was around forever. Same with Masokant) Imms don't like having 2 demon DKs. That is understandable, but on the same note I have to delay a character I really like, spent my time imagining simply because there is one already? Not fun Now I have to roll a gnome invoker, and when Masokant is gone, someone else gets it because they existed for 2 months while Masokant was condying.

Giving the pbase access to these things is just going to add some spice to the day to day life of FL. Even more so since you can still hold these qraces to the same standards they are held to now, which means they get policed alot heavier than standard race/class.

Elder vamps are ridiculously hard to get.

I think there might have been 3 in the last 8-10 years I've played?

Sometimes I wonder how you people come up with such conclusions.

I can actually think of 2 in the last 3 years.

Valadar and Philantees.

Now add to that Martineius, Messa, Cariosus (just to mention the most famous ones) and the plethora which I can't remember right now and you will find that Elder vamp is just as hard to get as elder whatever.

I don't disagree that the current limits can be frustrating... But the point I was going for is that to make these things common and easy to get takes a lot of their flavor away. I like that qclasses and qraces are relatively rare... It keeps them from being just another combo to roll up.

And were you seriously asking me why a demon bmg is better than a drow? I didn't think anyone here would be arguing that qraces aren't a degree stronger than the mundane races.

(I bet many reading this didnt even know elder vamps existed).

Pointed, only now do I hear about such things.

I don't disagree that the current limits can be frustrating... But the point I was going for is that to make these things common and easy to get takes a lot of their flavor away. I like that qclasses and qraces are relatively rare... It keeps them from being just another combo to roll up.

And were you seriously asking me why a demon bmg is better than a drow? I didn't think anyone here would be arguing that qraces aren't a degree stronger than the mundane races.

Yes but they are also filled with vulnerabilities that most never overcome.

This is a game, its supposed to be fun. Yet the best part is locked away, difficult to get. The game is designed for multiple vamps, avatar, crusader, and 2 cabals are designed to put undeads to rest for good.

I still say though, my reasoning so to speak, is that this is the best part of fl. Imagine the mud if you can roll human then have a choice of evil races...or how about good alignment, when completing the avatar quest is why you roll purity to hunt the abundent undead. Join knigt at flippin 30, sigil v by 40.

Of course we would be unleashing every cliched form of rp for vampires, crusaders, avatars, demons, liches, psions, undead...wow, what a long list............this mud has some buff skeletons in its closet

Yes but they are also filled with vulnerabilities that most never overcome.

Yeah, demons are just full of vulns.

I still say though, my reasoning so to speak, is that this is the best part of fl. Imagine the mud if you can roll human then have a choice of evil races...or how about good alignment, when completing the avatar quest is why you roll purity to hunt the abundent undead. Join knigt at flippin 30, sigil v by 40.

Of course we would be unleashing every cliched form of rp for vampires, crusaders, avatars, demons, liches, psions, undead...wow, what a long list............this mud has some buff skeletons in its closet

Yes, it sounds like a power gamer pk fest where nobody has to RP to earn these things.

These things would still be policed heavily. With punishments for breaching protocol.

all those races have big downsides too. I got avatar at forty one once. I took fifteen deaths trying to get pinn. Then once i did i had more enemies than i could deal with. People will experience the same i am sure. The player base will balance itself out. To many demons you say. Someone will make a bada** stalker. To many vamps, here comes storm sader. I would like to at least see an attempt at this implemented of only for a brief period.

These things would still be policed heavily. With punishments for breaching protocol.

all those races have big downsides too. I got avatar at forty one once. I took fifteen deaths trying to get pinn. Then once i did i had more enemies than i could deal with. People will experience the same i am sure. The player base will balance itself out. To many demons you say. Someone will make a bada** stalker. To many vamps, here comes storm sader. I would like to at least see an attempt at this implemented of only for a brief period.

It would be the over-prevalence of qraces as a whole, not any particular one type, that I was referring to. I have little interest in logging in and seeing 50%-plus of the active payers are vamps, demons, saders, etc. From a purely aesthetic point of view as a player, I prefer these beings remaining in the minority. I also prefer them being earned by superior play - and policing that they remain at these standards becomes MUCH harder on the IMMs when they're around in unlimited numbers.

I also do not have your faith that such things would simply balance out (edit: and i do not understand how you think your experiences with a qrace when they are rare and attention is focused on individuals will be repeated when those conditions are not met). I think you guys may be right in that how qraces are limited now is not ideal, but I hardly think that means we should therefore get rid of all limits on them. That seems like an overkill solution.

Actually I believe they would balance out in the end. After everyone got over the fact that they can now roll up a character that can easily become a Vamp or Lich or something else that's amazing, people figure out what they do and realize that eventually more bugs and kinks in those classes could be worked out if there are any and I'm sure toning would happen and thus people would go back to playing regular classes. Granted that might take some time, but I could see it happening.

After failing the Psi quest I could slap myself for not being more patient on it as I was just denied recently on another Psi App for Yriel getting it and passing the quest, and quite frankly the only reason I want to be one is because I've never gotten it before. I've done just about everything else except Demon, Lich and Crusader and I'm just simply curious about that class more so than the other three. If I rolled up a character and passed the quest to be changed, well then I'd get it to 50 and probably lose interest in it as well and go off and do one of the other three.

I could see it being a bit more taxing at first, but I would hope people would be mature enough to be able to actually make the right decisions. Don't gang as one of the special classes and you're fine. Otherwise in the end it wouldn't be too bad I don't think. On the same side though I can see how it COULD potentially be a problem as no matter how mature the player base seems to be, there will always be a few who ruin it for the rest of us and actually cause more problems than what they're worth. The only thing I think would be good is if there were more qraces/classes allowed based on what type of character they are IE: there's four Vamps, but really only one of them is PK oriented, one is very RP oriented and the other two are just somewhere in the middle.

What really makes me mad is that if there is a demon of a certain class, there can only be that demon. So if there is already a demon battlemage there cannot be another demon battlemage. This rule is stupid, seriously stupid.

I saw two demon DK's the other day.

Myth busted!

Heh. ^

Umm no it is not a myth there chief. IT IS NOT ALLOWED. I would know cause I was rejected because of that very reason.

Maybe your RP wasn't good enough? PK not too shabby? Or just that a Demon DK came off of the shelf? (Which I think is pretty lame myself..)

Well The note said rejected, because there cannot be more then one active demon per class at a time.

Actually I believe they would balance out in the end. After everyone got over the fact that they can now roll up a character that can easily become a Vamp or Lich or something else that's amazing' date=' people figure out what they do and realize that eventually more bugs and kinks in those classes could be worked out if there are any and I'm sure toning would happen and thus people would go back to playing regular classes. Granted that might take some time, but I could see it happening.[/quote']

So, after a period of toning, they end up as just another set of regular classes, or at best druid-like classes. I have no desire to see our qclasses reduced in such a way. The very thing you're advocating to relieve people's desire to play one would, in the long run, destroy that desire.

This is the biggest thing people don't seem to understand: it is precisely the limited yet more powerful nature of qraces that creates the draw to them in the first place. Make them something anyone can be whenever they want, and they become just classes and races. I have no desire to see that happen. The difficulty in attaining one is the entire damn point of them.

I generally don't have a difficult time in obtaining them anymore. I did when I first started, but after a while it was pretty easy to obtain. Honestly I could care less about whether people should be allowed to have them at will, but I do agree to a degree that information shouldn't be so horded about them as far as the obvious goes. And technically they will probably be toned further in the future regardless of whether or not we have tons of players playing them or not. There's always something that will happen and someone will find something to do to be able to figure out some trick to cause it to happen to begin with.

Oh, I'm quite undecided regarding how much qclass info should be spread (the thread derailed a bit ). But I remain quite entrenched behind the idea that qclasses themselves should remain limited.

Regarding toning, the difference is a matter of degree. Right now, with qclasses and qraces being limited, they are toned, but to a degree where they are still a bit more powerful than the more mundane combos (or at least should be in most cases). But if qraces and qclasses become available to anyone, then they would need to be toned to the point where they are effectively in line with the other mundane classes. I have no desire to see that happen - I like qclasses being a bit more powerful than normal ones.

Again, I don't mean to say that there necessarily aren't good arguments in favor of upping the numbers of qraces allowed or something along those lines - only that I think that opening them up in such an unlimited fashion is a vast overstep in terms of correcting a relatively small problem. Quite seriously, opening up qraces in such a way would make it very hard for me to continue playing here (and yes, I AM playing right now, before any objection along those lines is raised). It would cater to PK above RP, it would cater to ease above effort, and it would cater to the lowest common denominator rather than demanding that we try our best even when we aren't sure of success.

This is a game, a real game, not the usual computer-based entertainment. You should have a chance to lose, in more ways than just dying in PK. It is what makes winning, however you care to define it, all the sweeter.