Locked Syndicate for evils only.

Murdering people for money is evil, straight up.

It's unreasonable to posit that neutrals should be able to kill goods for profit.

Change my mind.

I think alot of people agree.

Totally agree. Been an advocate of this for a long time now.

I agree, but it's not going to be changed because pkers like the mechanical advantages of being neutral.

Four out of my five Syndicates have been evil. Evils were most fun. +1

+1

Always thought Neutrals had no place in a head hunting organizations .

I fully support this notion. It could also be addressed with an exception type situation, like ninjas in warmaster. If the Neutral started with exceptional RP and applied to Syndicate and that RP was approved then I would be okay with a rare neutral in Syndicate. Examples: Someone is holding my family ransom, I must do this work to free them. etc. Or potentially allow neutral combos to go Syndicate, but be outcast to evil with applicable effects. If you want that halfling/gnome bounty hunter prepare for him to be made evil. Ultimately I wouldn't be sad if no neutrals were in Syndi, and disregard this stipulation entirely.

30 minutes ago, mya said:

I agree, but it's not going to be changed because pkers like the mechanical advantages of being neutral.

I'm having trouble coming up with what those advantages might be.

6 minutes ago, Magick said:

I'm having trouble coming up with what those advantages might be.

Simply more options with neutral/evil than just evil. Halflings, gnomes, stone giants, minotaurs, werebeast, dwarf, half-elf would all be removed as Syndicate selections. Granted many of those are rare to see in Syndicate as it is so maybe moot. Potentially more selections of Psion.

Some argue for and some argue against the "protection dilemma". Sure you can't use protection against neutrals and they can't use it against you.... but with Syndicate skills and pressure this may still arguably benefit the aggressor which will most often be the Syndicate. I only mention this point because someone would've sooner or later.

If a neutral behaved like a syndi, but wasn't in the cabal or trying to be, they would get outcast to evil. That to me suggests neutrals shouldn't be syndi w/o being outcast

2 hours ago, Lloraaru said:

Change my mind.

I will give it an attempt.

1. If Syndicate becomes evil only no good aligned character could ever post a bounty. It would be associating with evil.

2. Syndicate's purpose is to Eliminate threats a player can not eliminate themselves. Whether because of time zone restrictions, or abilities. See number 1.

3. Because of 2, Syndicate can be viewed as a valuable balancing tool within the game. Making it evil only means that we have another evil only avenue for success which creates an imbalance in itself.

4. Making the cabal evil only eliminates the ability of any neutral only race from joining the cabal/clan. Since cabal restrictions are applied to clan guardians for the purpose of Joining, Minotaurs, gnomes, and werebeasts would need to apply to the staff to join the cartel. Meaning a staff member who could be making a positive change is spending time approving unnecessary applications. This also means Merchants will always be evil, unless the staff is further burdened to move that cabal.

This argument has been brought up many many times. I have found myself over the years on both sides of the argument.

We have goods who have killed goods, for idealistic reasons who are now known as repented. Not outcast, not permanently evil.

Yet we discuss whether a neutral should be permanently evil for their RP choices.

I am on the fence on this one. Change my mind.

Really?  The argument is so loaded it's not funny.

1.  Murder indicates that it is either unlawful or without valid excuse or both.  We all know that lawful in FL means something completely different than what is complicit with both our reality of lawful, a D&D reality of lawful (heh...D&D and reality), and validity in the case of those realities.  There are, as my dear man Croyvern eloquently points out, both IC and OOC reasons to be considered; Syndicate is our most complex cabal despite what some may say about it.

2.  The Neutrals Killing Goods argument is based on a morality spectrum that assumes a good cannot do an injustice which brings us back around to the "murder" premise which, as shown in point 1, is based on a misappropriation of etymology.  

I'm not going to ask you to change your mind.  I will, however, ask you try again?

As far as neutrals being in syndicate goes, that is a neutral fully declaring themselves. It opens them up to attacks from goods and other neutrals. Same as being in warmaster as a neutral opens you up to being murdered by good and neutral savants. I see no real reason for this to change.

22 minutes ago, Rensvert said:

As far as neutrals being in syndicate goes, that is a neutral fully declaring themselves. It opens them up to attacks from goods and other neutrals. Same as being in warmaster as a neutral opens you up to being murdered by good and neutral savants. I see no real reason for this to change.

So if there's a neutral halfling bard in Syndicate, and I'm a goodie paladin without a bounty...I can still kill the neutral halfling bard in syndicate?

The big argument is that killing for money is evil. You could play a non murderous warmaster. You cannot play a non murder for hire syndi because that's what syndi is. If a non syndi neutral ran about killing for gold they would get outcast.

12 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

The big argument is that killing for money is evil. You could play a non murderous warmaster. You cannot play a non murder for hire syndi because that's what syndi is. If a non syndi neutral ran about killing for gold they would get outcast.

One step further. Can a Non-Syndicate neutral collect a bounty and not become Outcast? What about a Neutral Cartel Member? The only difference is being Inducted.

17 minutes ago, Zoichan said:

So if there's a neutral halfling bard in Syndicate, and I'm a goodie paladin without a bounty...I can still kill the neutral halfling bard in syndicate?

This is actually a really good question. If you have a bounty, and you know a Syndicate will come collect you.... can you strike first with this information? (Assuming you don't already have justification like you're good and he's evil etc)

22 minutes ago, Zoichan said:

So if there's a neutral halfling bard in Syndicate, and I'm a goodie paladin without a bounty...I can still kill the neutral halfling bard in syndicate?

While I think it certainly depends on the paladins RP, but if you are in tribunal or knight, I dont really see an issue with it. You've declared yourself a contract killer and need to be stopped. But that's just my two cents and you are the immortal here not me.

I also would be all for letting goods into syndicate, but I am pretty open minded on neutrals doing what they want.

But the inherent traits of being neutral don't match the inherent traits of being a paid assassin.

It's more on the ethos than the alignment.  You'll never see a lawful in Syndicate because it allows breaking city laws.  

It's not about killing for money.  It's a cabal, OOC, for the best Pkers to get utilization as the best at what they do, and IC it's a plied trade where money exchange can be secondary to creating a balance for injustice Tribunals can't avenge.  No evil will place that secondary trait within the same realm of complentation a neutral would and should.

The inherent traits of neutral basically are, do not kill without provocation, this includes bounties, thieving/ blackjack, strangle and basically anything else that can be taken as a set up to kill someone. Now to me that basically means neutrals have no business joining any cabal outside merchant or herald.

Or as I like to think of it, really really restrictive. Being neutral in Warmaster or Savant opens you up to the other cabal instantly no questions asked. Same with Watcher and Tribunal, I see no reason why syndicate is any different to that. Outside of the fact that they do not have a perma vendetta. But as I said earlier declaring yourself a contract killer, to me opens you up for goods to attack as a protector of injustice.