Nexus owns.
cabals and goods
im going to have to say I agree with pali. if a good is standing in the way of another good trying to slay an evil person, then they should be held accountable as if they were evil. kinda hippocritical.(sp?)
And heres the summery of what all the Imms are saying. Don't like it? Don't play a good. Want to bitch about it? Drive through.
Harsh, but that is the way things are. I'll accept it, I dont' have to like it, but I'll move on. I just won't play goodies. I said that after Tymox I'll never play another goodie.(ended up having to delete just before condeath because I forgot mercy and capped a justice sader. Would of meant outcasting and loss of avatar and maybe loss or change of title. I didn't want to go out that way.)
grins Why do you think I've not ranked a good past level 5 since I started playing again? ^_~
No, what the IMMs are saying is that this has always been the rule of things since Viri decided it quite some time ago. Behrens has echoed Viri's thoughts on the matter in that he wants it this way on purpose.
I've said this before...if Viri made a statement like Behrens did earlier, would this thread have continued with a bunch of ultimatums and demands and complaints?
And if not, why not? Afford Behrens a similar level of respect as you would any other IMP while Viri was here. He was given the game to take on by Viri. Respect Viri's choice.
I wouldn't say that Chayesh. I respect Behrens more then I did Virio. I've donated way more time and money since he took over, and I've came back alot happier then how things were then.
I have, however, argued with Viri about some of these points just as heatedly. This, at least to me, has NOTHING to do with respect. I respect his opinion, thus the reason I posted my flat statement about the imm's summary.
No, what the IMMs are saying is that this has always been the rule of things since Viri decided it quite some time ago. Behrens has echoed Viri's thoughts on the matter in that he wants it this way on purpose.
I've said this before...if Viri made a statement like Behrens did earlier, would this thread have continued with a bunch of ultimatums and demands and complaints?
And if not, why not? Afford Behrens a similar level of respect as you would any other IMP while Viri was here. He was given the game to take on by Viri. Respect Viri's choice.
Oh, if any disrespect was read in my comments, it was NOT intended in the slightest. This is simply a subject I've disagreed with the IMMs on since I started playing. Streantian, Crypt, Viri, etc. Doesn't mean I don't accept their decisions. Just means I try to change them by reasoning with them. If you guys don't think my reasons are solid, it's not my game, its yours. I'm still playing. ^_~
No, what the IMMs are saying is that this has always been the rule of things since Viri decided it quite some time ago. Behrens has echoed Viri's thoughts on the matter in that he wants it this way on purpose.
I've said this before...if Viri made a statement like Behrens did earlier, would this thread have continued with a bunch of ultimatums and demands and complaints?
And if not, why not? Afford Behrens a similar level of respect as you would any other IMP while Viri was here. He was given the game to take on by Viri. Respect Viri's choice.
Not to be a dick Chayesh, but you're supporting your point by the past actions of others. "Virigoth said this, so it must be like this, and it has to be done." That's not a very good support...something very concrete, to the point, rational, and logical will probably shut most people up.
I wouldn't want you on my debate team 
Here's a simple answer to that.
Irumeru tells you that knifing the Tribunal is a bad thing.
Irumeru feels differently about a Tribunal capturing your *** in order to preserve the greater good.
A chaotic good isn't SUPPOSED to be able to make a good Tribunal 'pay'. It's one of the defining hallmarks, the struggle between good and good, in almost any fantasy setting; what some (Iru, amongst others), have described as the 'tragic RP' of Knights/Avatars, in being forced to be attacked and flee their own brethren.
In other words, it comes with the turf.
Irumeru, the supreme and ONLY lord and god of all good, the being of divine light, etc. is allowing one of his followers to attack and, for all purposes, kill another follower who happens to be his chosen representation of this land without any repercussions.
And before you say it, the repercussions aren't that they have to because that's their duty. That's an premise to the result of chasing and subsequently 'killing' another good. We're talking about the consequences after their bloody deed.
I don't get it.
Irumeru, the supreme and ONLY lord and god of all good, the being of divine light, etc. is allowing one of his followers to attack and, for all purposes, kill another follower who happens to be his chosen representation of this land without any repercussions.
And before you say it, the repercussions aren't that they have to because that's their duty. That's an premise to the result of chasing and subsequently 'killing' another good. We're talking about the consequences after their bloody deed.
I don't get it.
won't get involved again, won't get involved again, won't get involved again...
If Irumeru were going to have to come down from heaven to stop his avatar from being executed, well then he'd have to start doing the same when said avatar was about to be killed by vampires, or demons, or bards. It's not a very good representative of the supreme immortal being that has to be saved from death every twenty minutes by said supreme immortal being. 
If Irumeru were going to have to come down from heaven to stop his avatar from being executed' date=' well then he'd have to start doing the same when said avatar was about to be killed by vampires, or demons, or bards. It's not a very good representative of the supreme immortal being that has to be saved from death every twenty minutes by said supreme immortal being.
Completely off topic. I mean, that's like a million miles away. We're talking about why a supreme god of good would not punish one of HIS followers for attacking another of HIS followers. Unless I' mistaken, vampires/demons don't follow irumeru.
When good Justices apprehend goods, they are doing so to maintain a system; they are doing so for the greater good, they are doing so in order to preserve peace, order, and civilization. There's no gain to themselves; what they are doing, they are doing for the greater good.
When wanted goods kill good Justices, they are doing so for personal benefit, for selfish reasons; because they don't want to die, because they are tired of being chased, because their ego can't handle running away.
And no, keeping yourself alive by killing others is not for the 'greater good'.
When good Justices apprehend goods, they are doing so to maintain a system; they are doing so for the greater good, they are doing so in order to preserve peace, order, and civilization. There's no gain to themselves; what they are doing, they are doing for the greater good.
When wanted goods kill good Justices, they are doing so for personal benefit, for selfish reasons; because they don't want to die, because they are tired of being chased, because their ego can't handle running away.
And no, keeping yourself alive by killing others is not for the 'greater good'.
You have no idea how hard it is for me to not jump back into this. NO idea.
When good Justices apprehend goods, they are doing so to maintain a system; they are doing so for the greater good, they are doing so in order to preserve peace, order, and civilization. There's no gain to themselves; what they are doing, they are doing for the greater good.
When wanted goods kill good Justices, they are doing so for personal benefit, for selfish reasons; because they don't want to die, because they are tired of being chased, because their ego can't handle running away.
And no, keeping yourself alive by killing others is not for the 'greater good'.
The first statement I'll have to agree with. It's a good summarization of why a good justice would be a good justice.
The second statement is a presumption. It's hard to tell that if there's an alterior motive for the good to kill the other justice. For instance, what if the good justice is protecting the ultimate evil creature?
Kinda reminds me of the movie Constantine. Gabriel wanted to bring about the prince of the underworld to purge the world of all wickedness. Oops! His (or hers? can't tell the difference) wings are burnt off and god stopped supporting her/him.
In any case, I'm still wondering why the supreme god of good would allow one of his followers to kill another follower without repercussions. If there was another god of good and the intentions of both gods conflicted, I'd buy it. At the current state...that, I believe, is one of the primary reason behind this conflict (rp wise anyways).
"The second statement is a presumption. It's hard to tell that if there's an alterior motive for the good to kill the other justice. For instance, what if the good justice is protecting the ultimate evil creature?"
This would only make sense under the condition that 1) Killing the good Justice is necessary in order to kill that ultimate evil creature (highly unlikely, as you can always wait for the creature to come out of town/kill him when the good Justice isn't around), or 2) That there IS an ultimate evil creature that would destroy the world if you didn't. Random DK's, demons, undead, whatever, don't count. If you want to go destroying undead/demons, there's lots more around, including serious baddies like Lord Talex, who's building an army and biding his time to invade, vampire mobs like Vladimere, and more.
If Malchaeius was going to destroy the world, but was doing it in town, and a goodie had to get through the good Justice in order to stop Malchaeius, I don't think he'd be outcasted.
Neither scenario, as I see it, is very likely at all, and I'm highly dubious that they occur in any of the very, very few good vs good PK scenarios. There are very, very few scenarios I can think of that would DEMAND that the good criminal kill the good Justice.
"In any case, I'm still wondering why the supreme god of good would allow one of his followers to kill another follower without repercussions. If there was another god of good and the intentions of both gods conflicted, I'd buy it. At the current state...that, I believe, is one of the primary reason behind this conflict (rp wise anyways)."
Simply, because Iru is only the God of Purity. He's not the God of 'every good' (think about the One God for crusaders, for example, or the host of elven Gods such as Yaegar, etc.), he's just the only one that is 'visible', so to speak, and perhaps/probably the most powerful.
Good, isn't under Irumeru's 'direction', and isn't monolithic. There are many different forms of good philosophy, some of them clashing, yes. There may be situations where, for the greater good (back to this idea again), it's necessary for a Justice good to apprehend a wanted good. There are almost never any situations where it is for the 'greater good', for a wanted good to murder the Justice good, instead of just running.
So, to summarize:
Good Justice RP: I must apprehend the good criminal, for the greater good.
Good Knight/Avatar RP: I must break the laws to kill evils, for the greater good.
No situation: I must kill the good Justice instead of fleeing from him, for the greater good.
Of course, by 'no' I mean 'very, very few/rare'. But the point stands, IMHO.
Ok, that makes a lot more sense if Irumeru is only the God of Purity. That would mean there are others gods of Compassion and Tranquility. In any case, if a person of purity were to kill another of purity, there should be a type of outcasting or damnation. I think that reasoning would be hard to argue against.
If there was an evil person who was in the process of a plan that would do dark and terrible things to others, I don't think that a goodie would simply WAIT for that thing to happen. In fact, since pcs are supposed to represent heroes who are active in their quest and grown very powerful, it's safe to assume that evil heroes are in fact a representation of 'the ultimate evil.' (if there rp coincides with it as in mass pking or evil evil rp)
Iru posted this earlier.
"You are very correct, Pali. Irumeru, as Irumeru, would want you to ignore the laws to kill evil. In fact, I think a Purity Tribunal has to look very carefully as his RP, because I think the two are in too much conflict. But not every good is Purity. Compassion, Tranquility, etc, all have very valid RP reasons to prefer law and peace to absolute destruction of evil."
So we agree with you in that Purity Tribby is going to have to be closely peered at. And yes, there are other 'Gods' of Compassion/Tranquility; even if there aren't, the philosophy of Compassion/Tranquility itself can be considered a 'God' in that sense, although just a while ago, we had an IMM of Compassion, Thelsyome.
With regards to mass pking/evil evil RP, even then, consider:
- He's in the city, Tribunal's in the city.
Under the Tribunal's watchful eye, he's not killing anyone at the moment. Why do you absolutely need to kill him that very moment.
- He's in the city, Tribunal's not in the city.
Go for it!
- He leaves the city.
Jump'm!
For the most part (avatar RP, again, is something else), there's no need to kill someone while a Justice/Tribunal is in town, because there will always be chances to kill them outside of it, or as soon as either he or the Justice/Tribunal leaves. It's more a matter of patience than anything else.
And, again, there's very few scenarios I can think of where a person absolutely must kill the Justice/Tribunal hunting them instead of running away.
Ah, and hence why I think every goodie who picks Purity as their religion, including healers, should NEVER be lawful.
Are we to assume that there is one entity per religion if it's not clearly defined? Obviously Irumeru is the only god of Purity. What of Compassion and Tranquility? If, for some really odd reason and rp a justice of compassion were to 'kill' a person of compassion, would that person have repurcussions?
Followers of Compassion and Tranquility shouldn't be randomly attacking/killing people, city or not.
Heh.