Assassinate

So that means I should be able to kill ANYONE? You really have no idea how fast and easy it is to study someone, do you?

It seems that you have some bad experience

Well, let's just say I have experience.

I've fought what I consider, the two most skillful assassinate ninjas, one being yours (Phamane), the other being Grosnek's (Skia) and I know how fast one can be fully studied and assassinated while awake and completely decked and prepared. And if I didn't wanted to cry, I would have surely laughed.

I'll chime in with an unbiased view. I don't play right now so I am unaffected by this whole mumbo jumbo.

Haven't played a few vampires, on a few occassions I was quite concerned about being assassinated. Sounds strange? Well, it isn't that hard to get tailed or lead someone around for a number of hours even if they aren't hidden and you can see them.

I've never been assassinated, thats because I never put myself in the position to be. I once chased Tetsunai around Val Miran with Azaghtoth for a good 8 hours. I ended up logging after that, because I knew what was going to happen if I stuck around.

I don't hang around towns or places where people can hide long enough if I know there is a ninja around. Basically this almost involves putting your characters life on hold and playing the wuss. I am sure I've had this conversation before. But hiding on crab island isn't a legitimate way to avoid assassination also makes for very boring gameplay.

Trying to track down and kill a ninja is folly and will only lead to your death. So, what are viable means to combat ninjas (whilst be competitive and able to have chance to kill them). I think I might pose that question for now, for all the ones cheering for ninjas.

Hoping they miss and bashlocking them to death not a viable means. More often then not, they wont miss. And, a reliable bashlock will only work with an giant race and even then may not be reliable depending on how the ninja has prepared (I worked alot on reducing my ability to be bashlocked as philantees and it didn't end up happening many times). Only a small percentage of the players will be a giant warriors/berserkers.

I think at the end of the day all the vets complain as they've perfected their running and chasing techniques, really, the ability to hightail it and knowledge of location of all the goodies is what makes you a 'vet' in my eyes.

Assassinate provides you no option to do this.

My post' date=' if exaggerated at all, are only slightly. A skilled ninja can and WILL fully study you and assassinate you all that in less than five minutes. While you can detect hidden too.[/quote']

...if you are doing nothing to try to avoid them, sure.

Perhaps your understanding of "fair bit of work" and mine are a bit different. By a fair bit of work, I understand tackling your enemy for days (real life time days), creating complexed tactics about making him come up with wrong conclusions, leading him into areas better suited for you, draining him from his consumables. That is what I get for "fair bit of work". Not running around my victim, without even putting my sanc up, without wasting any consumables with wearing only a mithril suit for five minutes.

See, I'd call what you described above as "the massive amount of work one puts in to repeated battles against an arch-enemy" - if that's how what you require to win most of your PK fights, then your tactics need work.

Awake warriors can not counter assassinate. No matter what fuzzy memories you've got, thats how things are.

Like I said, it was something I'm not at all sure about, and I'm content to take your word on the subject. edit: The times I'm thinking of were probably failed assassinates where the opening round was countered. I'm unsure if I think this should be changed or not... RP-wise both assassinate and backstab are attacks that the target doesn't see coming, so how would they counter it?

Alright, I can understand that. BUT, how come you can get close enough to me while I see you and strike that weak spot while I know you know my weak spot and will be trying to strike it? You logic is solid, but only if the assassins is played like an assassin, and not like melee, and we are back to the need to be stealthy or assassinate landing only on sleeping victims.

Exactly why I'd prefer that ninjas be more stealth oriented and lose some of their melee capabilities. edit: I'm fairly certain a thief can still backstab someone if the target's awake and can see the thief... I guess I've just always viewed both skills as a blindingly fast attack that's pretty much too quick for the target to react to.

And I am sure we all know why we don't like assassinate. What I don't know is why we need to keep assassinate the way it is? That is what I asked and that is what noone has answer yet.

Unlike you, I value having a class around that is capable of killing anyone regardless of their equipment. It's a good way to keep characters from becoming too powerful.

Also, really, why do we keep comparing assassinate to bash? If you think bash is broken

I compare assassinate to bash in this instance because both are skills that will result in pdeaths without much that the opponent could have done to prevent it - at least, when certain conditions are met. I don't think bash is broken. I don't think assassinate is broken. Hell, assassinate is weaker now than it has ever been in FL history... if anything, I want it stronger.

I think at the end of the day all the vets complain as they've perfected their running and chasing techniques, really, the ability to hightail it and knowledge of location of all the goodies is what makes you a 'vet' in my eyes.

Assassinate provides you no option to do this.

I also think that this is why assassinate pisses people off... and I think this is also a lot of what makes assassinate a valuable part of the game. I don't care how well equipped you are, or how fast you can run - you should still die in this game, and ninjas help make sure that this happens.

I'm by no means a great player, and I've only ever been assassinated once. Maybe it's because my characters aren't really of consequence, or I don't usually have that great of eq, but maybe...JUST MAYBE...it's because I don't let it happen. I don't sit around, and wait to get studied, or stay somewhere a ninja can hide, and do so. I run around, I do stuff, I'm busy.

I've played ninjas, and yeah, sometimes studying is easy, and yeah, if you have a full study it's much easier to get that assassinate..but you have to have the eq for it in the first place, or it fails.

I think it's fine the way it is, because really, how many ninjas are ever out there? My friends who play ninjas always complain about bash, and the warriors always complain about assassinate. Get over it?

I've given up, Pali is arguing just for the sake of argument, but that doesn't really matter anyway.

What matters is Zhokril's and Anume's opinion, and from what I've seen assassinate will not be changed in any way. I don't really know how many more cheap ninjas and flame threads do we need.

It's funny because the immortals are pretty aware of the problems Skia and Phamane caused, yet they still decide to leave a highly questionable skill the way it is.

Well alright.

F0xx: You assume too much. There already WERE changes after Skia / Phamane. There might come one more in the near future.

Anume, I know there were changes that were supposed to make it harder for ninjas to assassinate prepared opponents....

Skia was very helpful showing us some "trick" he found out that guaranteed a successful assassinate even with only a hint of a study. This has been removed. So yes, it is harder to assassinate now as you need to study first.

If it was removed and no longer abusable, I'm very curious as to what Skia was doing.

I've given up' date=' Pali is arguing just for the sake of argument, but that doesn't really matter anyway.[/quote']

Please do not make assumptions regarding my motivations.

Come on Pali. We all know you argue for the sake of arguing. Every thread you post on proves it.

yay for the internet. Pali should have a custom forum title "Thera's Troll"

Come on Pali. We all know you argue for the sake of arguing. Every thread you post on proves it.

I don't deny that I enjoy a good discussion, but I don't argue just to argue - I argue when I think I have a point to make, and I don't give up easily.

That just happens fairly often - I'm opinionated like that.

Pretty sure you've made comments that point to the idea that you do argue just to argue

Pretty sure you've made comments that point to the idea that you do argue just to argue

...you know, I was going to start responding to this, but then I realized you'd be just making me argue with you, and in the end you'd just take that I've argued with you on the subject as vindication that I argue just to argue.

A good attempt, sir, but I will not fall for your trickery!

You basically told this one guy that you agreed with everything he said, whilst you were arguing on the other end of the issue the whole time.

That's arguing just to argue.

I actually think there's a great deal of value in being a Devil's Advocate at times - it helps you to think about ideas in ways you normally wouldn't, potentially changing your mind about them or simply altering your reaction to them. Unfortunately I have no idea which conversation you're referencing, or I could probably expand on why I was doing so in that case (or, if in reviewing it I think I was just arguing for the sake of it, I could apologize for doing so).

I know that I am more willing than most to argue against ideas I disagree with - but I cannot recall ever having done so for the purpose of annoying someone by just countering them with nonsense and BS.

Doing it for the purpose of annoyance or not...it is arguing just to argue.

Argument has value as an activity - there is nothing inherently negative about arguing. When one is actually putting consideration into what they and the other are saying, arguing ideas is one of the best ways I have yet to discover of expanding your understanding of what you think and why you think it.

On that note, bar time's in an hour - be back then.