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Standards for cabal promotions

Something I been thinking about for a long time is standardizing cabal promotion standards. Even if each cabal is different, there should be a clear path to promotion. I have watched characters get Elder in a month, and I have seen characters spend two months waiting for T. I have seen characters that where created while char A was already cabal vet, then get promoted to T before char A. While i understand that each cabal is gonna be a bit different, maybe challenges, collections, caps, a proposed law draft things along those lines. I hated that often times people get overlooked/lost in the pile strictly because other players generally get imm attention easier. I know people are going to say it doesn't happen, but the facts remain that it does happen. Not that someone is being purposefully ignored, but some players write a more interesting story, and that does earn imm attention. That doesn't mean that a simple character with simple goals should suffer, it just often ends up that way because of finite playtime. I also think it should fall on the Cabal imms to update these standards if they take over a cabal. Lloth might want different things than GIfnab, and the cabal help files SHOULD reflect the changing desires/opinions of their divine leadership.  If Warmaster requires X fights for a promo, that should be that. Even if that is 30 fights, you wont see diparities between characters that players may never really understand. It really is frustrating watching other people get their promotions and immortal interaction while you sit here like a dog at the pound wondering what you did wrong. Often times you will never be told what happened until you delete. I know I have had several instances personally where my character had done all the things to achieve T, it was a matter of imm time was spent focusing on other characters. It is not that imms ignored me maliciously, that is just how the dice fell. It was still a bad experience for me as a player. 

 

I know there will also be players saying yOu NeEd To EaRn iT. I totally agree. I just want to know what is required for the most basic reward that literally every character should be able to achieve if they where allowed into the cabal is all. Also before I catch shit from people thinking im cabaled, and stuck, and annoyed. Nope. Couldn't be farther from the truth. If I have a problem about my own chars, I am vocal about it as my post history proves. This is a generalized post about an opinion I have had for years. It isnt about wanting shit handed out, it isnt about a sense of entitlement. It is about transparency (which is a good thing right, look at the release of the code, look at the response from gifnab being active and vis all the time). Players thrive when they have active goals to work toward. Characters die from boredom more than anything else in FL. Giving them a set path to get the things they want out of the game is a great way to improve player activity without needing staff to see everything every character in the game is doing. I'm gonna go ahead and post the civility disclaimer as well. If you disagree, GREAT! Please discuss why, bring up some points, offer your own point of view. Don't try to turn this into some flamey bullshit. It doesn't accomplish anything, and it really never will.

Honestly Tarako... I don't agree with you, ever.

However this is something that's been on my mind also. I've stopped playing and deleted characters of boredom more than anything. I log in every day hoping X application was looked at, or X character was promoted,...or even my journal was awarded (Journals not so much, they've been fast lately) but waiting a month for a promotion without a goal in mind is too much, waiting a month for an app to be approved (or longer) without a rejection of "Your app was shit, do it again" is too much. Just some direction would be fantastic, "Your app was approved! Do this... this... this... and this and we'll award you with the quest. Let us know when it's complete" or "You're a vet in a cabal and have the 10 hour mark, do this and this to get T, E, L" with obvious increasing difficulty would be fantastic.

Bumping up automatic cabal promotion from V to T seems reasonable.

Beyond that, I feel like there's just a combination of things that get you to E+: roleplay, pk, leadership, and consistency/perseverance. I don't think you can have a set template for someone becoming elder without diminishing the meaningfulness of the position — all of a sudden everyone in your cabal has fulfilled the requirements and are expecting that promotion. Elder+ is both recognition and reward (to me at least) for above-than-average gameplay. There are probably other factors playing in. I would guess that rolling up a WM when there's no one playing one and fighting the opposition will earn you higher ranks with fewer hours invested compared to a cabal at the top of the pecking order with 7+ members.

37 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

it just often ends up that way because of finite playtime.

If I was an imm, and I had a position to give out, if I looked at three different prospects and one of them was around  for three hours in a week and the other two were around three hours a day, I would probably not give a promotion to the guy with the significantly lower playtime. It may sound harsh, but it's not about you not deserving a position, but about someone else deserving it more. Basically, if you're in a cabal, you have to make sure you deserve it more.

Note:

If you really feel like the dog at the pound, post on prayer forum. My experience is that the imms often are more than happy to provide feedback/suggestions when I need them.

So. Some assumptions on my part (but assumptions based on experience), but this is basically how ranks/promotions work in most muds.

I agree with some parts of this.  People should know exactly what they need to do for their cabal for promotion.  But, I also disagree about someone getting a promotion over another because of time.  I have seen some Warmaster's like Jaspurr get promoted quickly because of the time they put in and the interaction they gave to the whole game.

Would this fix it?

1.  Update the helpfiles for each cabal based upon the current Imm that is over it.  This way, everyone knows what they are getting into and what is expected.

2.  Have a hard minimum requirement for promotion based on more than just time.  You know you can't get a qrace without 20 rp.  It is somewhat similar with what happens now, but it could be made more clear.

3.  Immortal interaction is huge, I can't overstate this.  But, we also have to understand that it is a huge task to sort through all the RP that everyone does AND try to interact with everyone.  Imagine having to sort through all the Character RP logs that are pages long along with all the journals right when you log in.  This doesn't even include that Imms want to play their own characters as well.

idk man I'd be cool with slower promos imo so long they came with a guided relationship with cabalmates and most importantly the cabal imm, as you are the champion of their cause.

 

Updated helpfiles and ect would be helpful

Yea @Archbishop Monk thats what I was getting at for finite playtime. There is just so much for the staff to go through between journals, apps, notes, logs, player plots AND their own characters it isnt realistic or fair to expect them to pay attention to everyone. The downside to accepting that reality is that some players are going to suffer strictly off the back of oops not enough time. This isn't to say that the staff does not try to keep everything in order. Some things just get lost in the pile as people are trying to do 50 things at once.

Dead horse, no?

I've always found promotions come when you put the work in regardless of the immortal.  Here is a list of some of the right things.

-Defending your standard even when you may die! (This will get you promoted faster then you think)  I'd be embarrassed as an imm if someone just quit because a tough fight came on.  Thats just me though, and I'm not speaking for anyone else.

-Overcoming great odds and defeating your enemy.  Capturing enemies standards, or placing raids when you are outnumbered.

-Writing notes within your Cabal, they do not need to be elaborate, they just need to be on point.

-Being active within your Cabal.  I know some of us don't have lots of play time, but what are you doing with the playtime you do have?  Are you standing around doing nothing?

If you aren't trying to get noticed within your cabal then why should you get a promotion?  Thats how I feel about it.  I've never had a problem getting to trusted.  If I feel I've been overlooked, I send a message to my Immortal IG rping why I should be promoted, then also a message to my immortal on the forums politely saying hey what am I doing wrong?  Odds are the immortal will be annoyed at you for a minute, but then at least they know you are there and trying.

 

 

Edited

What im saying izzy is there are people wgo are doing everything you could think of, and are slipping through the cracks.

Barring automatic promotion, wouldn't these people still run the same risk of slipping through the cracks? I mean... in that specific case, it seems the best option would be going to the prayer forum and politely ask: 'hey I am wondering what my character needs to do for their next cabal promotion, this is a significant goal that I have. Would you offer some feedback?'

44 minutes ago, Lexi said:

best option would be going to the prayer forum and politely ask: 'hey I am wondering what my character needs to do for their next cabal promotion, this is a significant goal that I have. Would you offer some feedback?

This is exactly what I was trying to say, there are cases where playtime is Limited and you may not be getting noticed, but a simple RP note in game and message on the forums will likely get the job done.  You will either be told "Hey do this, and promotion might be in order, or "Oh I'm sorry about your playtime and us missing each other, I'll look into it."

 

Realistically thought if you are writing RP notes and doing the things I suggested, I can't see how its possible to slip through the cracks.  You must get noticed if you want to be noticed.  IT REALLY IS THIS SIMPLE!

Izzy, ive got at least three examples personally un the last 18 months or so where it came out after deletion that the only reason I wasnt promoted was slipping through the cracks. Imms can't see or watch everything, and thats why I think standardizing T is a good thing. I know other chars have had it happen, some have it happening right now while other chars are promoted super fast in the same cabal. Not hating, just saying the reality is things get missed, especially with so much going on prepping for events.

Also you are suggesting to ask what you need to get promotions. I'm saying make it public knowledge so people do not have to ask imms. These are literally the same thing. Imms detailing what is needed for T....

48 minutes ago, 'tarako said:

Also you are suggesting to ask what you need to get promotions. I'm saying make it public knowledge so people do not have to ask imms. These are literally the same thing. Imms detailing what is needed for T....

I don't agree with this.  Trusted is still a very important position in a Cabal.  You come into peak powers.  Take Syndi for a moment.  You get Trusted automatically?  No.  You need to earn Trusted.  Powerful abilities happen at Trusted, and you need to be TRUSTED.  At Veteran you have enough ability to kill an Elder.  Also at veteran is where you're trying to make a name for yourself and if you do make a name for yourself VIA PK/RP, or both you get trusted.  Some people may not like the fact they haven't earned Trusted and need to work harder to get it.

 

My thoughts.

Edited

24 minutes ago, Izzzzy said:

I don't agree with this.  Trusted is still a very important position in a Cabal.  You come into peak powers.  Take Syndi for a moment.  You get Trusted automatically?  No.  You need to earn Trusted.  Powerful abilities happen at Trusted, and you need to be TRUSTED.  At Veteran you have enough ability to kill an Elder.  Also at veteran is where you're trying to make a name for yourself and if you do make a name for yourself VIA PK/RP, or both you get trusted.  Some people may not like the fact they haven't earned Trusted and need to work harder to get it.

 

My thoughts.

 

 

yeah man lets bar the peak power for most combos so the people who rolled a week earlier can wail on XYZ char who doesnt write journals and doesnt kneel to BS cabal matters.

I can get behind that zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The way I see it, there are two conflicting pieces to this puzzle.

  1. The desire among the playerbase (and this is certainly not the first time this has been expressed) for standardization and even automation of cabal promotions, q-things, etc. As described in the post, the position here seems to be that the ideal situation looks something like this --

The SAVANT Helpfile would state that:

In order to be admitted to the cabal, characters must...

  • Meet the race/class requirements for the cabal

- Complete 10 clan quests

  • Demonstrate strongly roleplayed knowledge of magic, the time stream, the planes, etc.

In order to be promoted to the rank of Trusted...

  • Some sort of standardized requirement
  1. The contrary argument rests in the role of the staff - that is, arguably, to bring the world to life. This occurs through a variety of processes, but when it comes to cabal management (and forgive me if this seems out of place, as I am still "the new guy") that means ensuring that cabal members are living up to the standards of the cabal, upholding a high level of play, and exemplifying the best of their cabal in all things.

To that end, as a cabal immortal, I have two extreme ends of a spectrum (and anywhere between) to choose from:

A. I can micromanage the cabal from top to bottom, all the time. I can decide what trades we do/don't have, I can plan the cabal's activities for my members, I can assign additional duties (such as mentorship, projects, etc.) to any member at any time. The extent to which I micromanage may fluctuate over time, but overall the cabal is mine and the members serve at my pleasure and to achieve my goals.

B. I can limit my management to player inductions when there is no elder/leader, but will typically seek to establish a mortal elder/leader that can do the bulk of the management for me. I may step in to address certain issues or circumstances, but in general the cabal is player led. I might send votes if needed (at the request of my members, in the absence of an elder/leader).

Keeping in mind that this is a spectrum, and I do not believe that any immortal operates on the polar extreme of one way or the other, there become two further issues:

A. The standardized requirements for each cabal would vary wildly, meaning the standardization is rather non-standard. For example, Warmaster may require a certain win ratio, or defeat of a strong foe (PK). Savant may require an in-depth exploration of some new form of magic or knowledge (RP). Herald may require an exquisite tea party to be held in honor of their avian overlord. The point is that with each cabal having different goals and values, a "standard" is very difficult to achieve.

B. Standardization in ANY fashion limits the capacity of the Immortal to make things special. For example, I promoted one of my members from Inductee to Member the other night after a particularly enjoyable RP session, which I felt demonstrated their commitment to the organization and Gifnab, the Immortal. This was a non-standard approach, but I felt it was the right decision to make the interaction special - and since it was in my purview as the cabal Immortal, I did it.

So where does that leave us?

Let's first take the unanswered question: Why don't we just automate cabal promotions up to T? And the answer is simple - for the same reason you want to be Trusted in the first place, because it is where the cabal powers start getting good. That is where we leave people for an indeterminate period of time, to prove their worth and capability. Trusted is exactly that: a symbol of trust from your cabal immortal. An assertion that I believe you have the capability to use the powers I afford you responsibly. An acknowledgement of your contributions to the cabal so far. And a new beginning - a proving ground, if you will - to test your capacity to ultimately serve as Elder (which in turn is a proving ground for Leader).

To me, that acknowledgement holds a lot more value than having idled for long enough to meet a baseline hours requirement.

Finally, I would like to address one more topic: there seems to be a sentiment in this thread that players fall through the cracks regularly. From what I have seen and read, this is not an issue that occurs with regularity (at least not as it was described). And when it does, the Immortals are often profusely apologetic and strive to make things right. So let's differentiate three different scenarios:

"Falling Through The Cracks" - You submit an application, write notes about XYZ, actively engage your other cabal members and your cabal immortal every chance that you get, have strong roleplay and playerkilling victories under your belt, and routinely seek out new tasks/assignments/responsibilities. And subsequently, you hear radio silence - perhaps because your immortal is away, or busy with work, or overwhelmed with other duties. And in those cases, you may genuinely get forgotten. It happens. We are human after all.

I would posit that these cases are fairly rare, however. Oftentimes, not only is your own cabal immortal watching but so is every other member of the staff. If you feel that you may be in a situation like this, the solution is very simple. Post on prayer or DM your Immortal on Discord to inquire about the situation. If you do not hear back from them, DM another immortal (me, for example), and we will poke at your cabal immortal to remind them. Note: Do not DM another immortal thirty minutes after DMing your cabal immortal. Use your common sense and best judgment.

"Living On The Baseline" - You may attempt to take your enemy's standard. You may actively defend/return when your enemy takes yours. You may respond to other players' roleplay, but do not actively engage your cabal in roleplay of your own. You may write journals and notes, but they are not necessarily reflective of advancing your cabal's goals.

These cases are much more common; and furthermore, they are compounded by the issues cited here of asynchronous play times, other staff responsibilities, etc. In these cases, please note - you may well still get promoted. Eventually. But if you are not going above and beyond, taking the next step, adhering to your cabal's roleplay, and exemplifying the best of your organization... it is going to take longer. Sometimes much longer.

"Judged And Found Wanting" - You rarely or never engage your enemies (offensively or defensively) in cabal warfare. Your PK record is mostly filled with kills against fresh level 50s. You silent PK often and your RP is lacking or non-existent. You don't engage with your cabal members or cabal immortal. You tarnish your cabal's reputation by being labelled as a frequent ganger or tagger.

These cases are also less common than the middle ground. But if you are either a lackluster or, god forbid, a negative addition to your cabal, you may well have an immortal that was close to promoting you decide that you need to wait a while longer. Or a lot longer, depending on the severity of your actions. In general though, expect the immortals to communicate with one another - and if you break a rule or act questionably, expect us to notice. And in some cases, yes, hold it against you. 

TL;DR - Cabal immortals tend to reward four categories: Cooperation, Resilience, Aptitude, and Performance. So get out there, be CRAP-py, and get that promotion.

3 minutes ago, Atticus said:

can wail on XYZ char who doesnt write journals and doesnt kneel to BS cabal matters.

Why are you in the Cabal if you can't do what the ELDERS of the Cabal and Leaders need.  Sounds to me you want the Cake, before you actually bake!

3 minutes ago, Atticus said:

yeah man lets bar the peak power for most combos so the people who rolled a week earlier can wail on XYZ char who doesnt write journals and doesnt kneel to BS cabal matters.

I can get behind that zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

That would be exactly the argument being made here, and one that I am in favor of. If you want the peak power combo, you need to earn it. Otherwise, you will have to settle for the slightly-below-peak power combo. Why is that a problem, exactly?

2 minutes ago, Gifnab said:

That would be exactly the argument being made here, and one that I am in favor of. If you want the peak power combo, you need to earn it. Otherwise, you will have to settle for the slightly-below-peak power combo. Why is that a problem, exactly?

"Earn" is a very lose and variable problem, which is actually being addressed in this thread as a theme.

2 minutes ago, Izzzzy said:

Why are you in the Cabal if you can't do what the ELDERS of the Cabal and Leaders need.  Sounds to me you want the Cake, before you actually bake!

Because maybe your RP stands in the way, or puts you at odds with those said E/L's ambitions and goals, simples pretty simple to me. I dont log into FL to play "listen to someone else" simulator.

 

Im pretty open on time today, lets make this a fun thread.

4 minutes ago, Gifnab said:

Let's first take the unanswered question: Why don't we just automate cabal promotions up to T? And the answer is simple - for the same reason you want to be Trusted in the first place, because it is where the cabal powers start getting good. That is where we leave people for an indeterminate period of time, to prove their worth and capability. Trusted is exactly that: a symbol of trust from your cabal immortal. An assertion that I believe you have the capability to use the powers I afford you responsibly. An acknowledgement of your contributions to the cabal so far. And a new beginning - a proving ground, if you will - to test your capacity to ultimately serve as Elder (which in turn is a proving ground for Leader).

To me, that acknowledgement holds a lot more value than having idled for long enough to meet a baseline hours requirement.

Finally, I would like to address one more topic: there seems to be a sentiment in this thread that players fall through the cracks regularly. From what I have seen and read, this is not an issue that occurs with regularity (at least not as it was described). And when it does, the Immortals are often profusely apologetic and strive to make things right.

This right here sums it up!  You want trusted earn it.  Immortals are very forgiving when they make mistakes and trust me I've been an ass to them and them to me.  One hand washes the other.  At the end of the day when IM IN A CABAL.  I want to FORCE my IMMORTAL to promote me!