Just now, Atticus said:
Im pretty open on time today, lets make this a fun thread.
There are no wrong answers when expressing yourself. We can be civil. As to you wanting to be at odds with your Elders goals, you are then Isolating yourself from the CABAL. Youll have to work that much harder to circumvent a CABAL with an ELDER! Theyve EARNED that spot!
4 minutes ago, Atticus said:
"Earn" is a very lose and variable problem, which is actually being addressed in this thread as a theme.
Because maybe your RP stands in the way, or puts you at odds with those said E/L's ambitions and goals, simples pretty simple to me. I dont log into FL to play "listen to someone else" simulator.
Im pretty open on time today, lets make this a fun thread.
A character is a person, with distinct goals and values that you DO get to decide. A cabal is an organization, with distinct goals and values that you DO NOT get to decide.
If your character's goals and values do not line up with those of the cabal, then you are unlikely to make it very far in said cabal.
Finally, let's avoid making this thread combative or snarky, please. There is no need for an "ideas" thread to become a shouting match.
Just now, Izzzzy said:
There are no wrong answers when expressing yourself. We can be civil. As to you wanting to be at odds with your Elders goals, you are then Isolating yourself from the CABAL. Youll have to work that much harder to circumvent a CABAL with an ELDER! Theyve EARNED that spot!
sorry, im pretty chill- I dont know how you took that but its basically saying lets talk about it, If I wanted to scrap I'd say so homie.
as for the E/L blah blah, I dont think you are correct- plenty of Cabals have proven theres a place for "not getting along"
Help Coup
2 minutes ago, Gifnab said:
A cabal is an organization, with distinct goals and values. A character is a person, with distinct goals and values.
If your character's goals and values do not line up with those of the cabal, then you are unlikely to make it very far in said cabal.
Finally, let's avoid making this thread combative or snarky, please. There is no need for an "ideas" thread to become a shouting match.
Okay I agree, however the discussion specifically that was being made I believe (i could be wrong) What i responded to was the E/L vs who ever you are.
Again we have seen examples in which an E/L may not be the end all be all of the Cabal's main talking points, yet a paragon/champion all the same--- we've seen this for years.
With that being said, yea if you aren't about the cabal life thats one thing, but if you dont "mesh well" with your E/L it doesnt mean you are in the wrong. If you think otherwise please elaborate.
Just now, Atticus said:
Help Coup
To coup and ELDER OR LEADER takes much skill. There are pros and cons to doing this. Thats what makes this great. Not all cabals have this for a reason, and I can assure you that if you try to Coup and ELDER, and I BELIEVE you need to be trusted to do it! Fact of the matter remains you need to EARN TRUSTED, and if you put in the work you will be trusted.
Just now, Izzzzy said:
To coup and ELDER OR LEADER takes much skill. There are pros and cons to doing this. Thats what makes this great. Not all cabals have this for a reason, and I can assure you that if you try to Coup and ELDER, and I BELIEVE you need to be trusted to do it! Fact of the matter remains you need to EARN TRUSTED, and if you put in the work you will be trusted.
Not really man you ever hear of assassination? Catching someone when they are not looking? I wouldn't say it takes a great degree of skill to sucker punch/pit hump ect ect. And to your point you dont have to be T to coup E/L you just will advance one position, them down if you are successful. again "EARN" is so variable here, some people get love, some dont- I think it was well outlined in OPs comments--- Its not even an imm favorite thing, some people dig xyz rp, some dont, some have differing play times, and some people may be hard to work with (thats me lol eat it). But yea I'm basically saying hey, even if the concern is things like this "falling in the cracks, feeling the underdog" it COULD have its place and I see why, I can also see why people wouldnt want the playing field to be "leveled", however I mean that to be a very linear progression to a rank that has held "prestige" for over a decade.
51 minutes ago, Izzzzy said:
I don't agree with this. Trusted is still a very important position in a Cabal. You come into peak powers. Take Syndi for a moment. You get Trusted automatically? No. You need to earn Trusted. Powerful abilities happen at Trusted, and you need to be TRUSTED. At Veteran you have enough ability to kill an Elder. Also at veteran is where you're trying to make a name for yourself and if you do make a name for yourself VIA PK/RP, or both you get trusted. Some people may not like the fact they haven't earned Trusted and need to work harder to get it.
My thoughts.
Syndi promo to T has been take 3 bounties for quite a while. So the standards for getting T syndi are pretty well established. At least they where unless things changed. So....
7 minutes ago, Atticus said:
Not really man you ever hear of assassination? Catching someone when they are not looking? I wouldn't say it takes a great degree of skill to sucker punch/pit hump ect ect. And to your point you dont have to be T to coup E/L you just will advance one position, them down if you are successful. again "EARN" is so variable here, some people get love, some dont- I think it was well outlined in OPs comments--- Its not even an imm favorite thing, some people dig xyz rp, some dont, some have differing play times, and some people may be hard to work with (thats me lol eat it). But yea I'm basically saying hey, even if the concern is things like this "falling in the cracks, feeling the underdog" it COULD have its place and I see why, I can also see why people wouldnt want the playing field to be "leveled", however I mean that to be a very linear progression to a rank that has held "prestige" for over a decade.
I'd never allow a Ninja to be near me if I felt I could be Assassinated. EVER! I barely allow trusted members around me when I'm Elder of a Couping Cabal. They are given orders, and if they don't like it they get DEMOTED. I EARNED ELDER.
5 minutes ago, Izzzzy said:
I'd never allow a Ninja to be near me if I felt I could be Assassinated. EVER! I barely allow trusted members around me when I'm Elder of a Couping Cabal. They are given orders, and if they don't like it they get DEMOTED. I EARNED ELDER.
yea man because thats how you inspire any potential loyalty, which I guess could serve as an example of "leadership". ---- "earned" being that you were GIVEN elder based upon a VARYING system of imm reward of rank. ---- I think thats the point being made here.
5 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
Syndi promo to T has been take 3 bounties for quite a while. So the standards for getting T syndi are pretty well established. At least they where unless things changed. So....
You can get it for taking an ELDER bounty. The point is if you prove your worth you get TRUSTED. It takes work to be trusted and I believe that Trusted is the road to LEADER. If you don't care about your Cabal, if you don't put the work in then why would YOUR CABAL trust you. People forget the importance of what Trust is. You want automatic to Trusted, yet you could be Rping a spy? What if I can sense it. Thats why when you have an Elder in a Cabal he/she talks to the TRUSTED members. TRUST IS EARNED
All I am saying is every imm has a standard they want met to promote to T. This does not mean the excellent chars who exceedd these standards shouldnt get a bump, or special reward. This just means that you have a baseline to shoot for. I am not saying hand everythng out, I am not saying lower standards, I am not saying automate T. I am saying make the standards public information. That way someone has a clear definition of what they need to be doing. I have played several characters, specifically evils, who just wouldnt relate well with their "allies" at all. Seviks being a prime example. It isnt that I wasn't roleplaying, it is that my RP directly worked against the characters I was allied with 95% of the time. I was writing journals, and notes, and stories, and RPing with Deakon, Marcella, Keshan consistently. I 100% fell through the cracks. After deleting Lloth told me what I needed to do, and Anume spoke up to say he has been doing that so often that she was snooping me to get a laugh out of how often I was backstabbing people as a pandy should have been. Lloth just never saw it because a combination of playtimes, and attention going to another pandy that was in at the time. This is not anyone's fault, it is just a case where something slipped through the cracks. That is all I want to avoid. I do not think chars doing the bare minimum should get a handout. I just feel that everyone should know the standards of their Imm to prevent a couple of issues that often result in dead characters.
2 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
All I am saying is every imm has a standard they want met to promote to T.
All I'm saying is that Trust is earned and I don't think this should ever happen. Still love you both. @Atticus @'tarako
When there is an Elder the Imm isn't the one you need to impress, they generally let there ELDER handle these things. Just saying.
2 minutes ago, Izzzzy said:
All I'm saying is that Trust is earned and I don't think this should ever happen. Still love you both. @Atticus @'tarako
Hey man I was just here for the discussion, love the game and the people. Mostly.
Trust is earned is a weird thing, like I've seen people hit T without ever interacting with them in cabal as a T.
What are you not understanding about this. I am saying that if an imm wants to see a character do x,y, and z before being promoted, then the character should know that is what they need to do. You are saying ask the Imm to be told what you need to do, and I am saying imms should just let it be known publicly. We literally want the same information, you are just saying go OOC dming your imm to ask about promos, and I am saying make it known IC what is wanted. Your suggestion does not change the fact that characters DO slip between the cracks, and it can really kill the desire to play. I've had multiple chars who I had great momentum, then watching myself get passed up in favor of other chars killed it when the reason I was passed up is my RP was not being actively observed. Multiple deletion threads by me where this is plainly the case. I know it has happened to other people as well.
^^^ It'd be nice to have a baseline, and even if that is a "fluid" thing.Like all we got on the matter is help RP and it says 5 rp minmum for Trusted -- our only guideline is that and the time requirement to sink in. So you meet that of course and float around hoping you get "the nod" down the road.
15 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
What are you not understanding about this. I am saying that if an imm wants to see a character do x,y, and z before being promoted, then the character should know that is what they need to do.
I will go back to my Elder comment. If there is an Elder in the CABAL, they normally run it. If you feel you've been overlooked, message your imm. Thats it. Youll most likely get noticed. Stop forgetting about the importance of ELDER/LEADER. Its not always the IMM, and it should'n t be automated period. Maybe the ELDER wants something different. Theyve earned that spot. Now if the ELDER is MIA......Message the Imm. This is the last I say on the matter.
4 minutes ago, Izzzzy said:
I will go back to my Elder comment. If there is an Elder in the CABAL, they normally run it. If you feel you've been overlooked, message your imm. Thats it. Youll most likely get noticed. Stop forgetting about the importance of ELDER/LEADER. Its not always the IMM, and it should'n t be automated period. Maybe the ELDER wants something different. Theyve earned that spot. Now if the ELDER is MIA......Message the Imm. This is the last I say on the matter.
In before...
An elder cannot promote to trusted, but they can send a note to [CABAL] imm with glowing recommendations.
I never said automate. Never suggested automate. I said STANDARDIZE. Which means each cabal imm chooses their requirements for Trusted, and makes them public. Some chars are gonna hit them easily, others are going to struggle or not try. BUT the standards are there for everyone to see, so if you are trying to hit Trusted, you CANNOT slip through the cracks anymore.
The problem with standardization without automation is that you set down requirements which leads to people expecting the promotion. If the imms see behaviour/roleplay/etc that makes someone undeserving of the promotion, you will now have a player that thinks they are getting shafted by the imms: "I completed the requirements where is my promotion"
The problem with standardization without automation is that in the scenario of 'people slipping through the cracks', this will still happen. Something will go overlooked. Someone will be overwhelmed with RL stuff and miss something a character did. And now you have a player that's fulfilled the expected requirements and the proposed solution to 'slipping through the cracks' is not helping at all.
I don't know. I have this feeling of setting down very specific, very clear requirements as something that will hamper creativity and funnel everyone in a cabal towards the same behaviour. If I know that I need to make 5 sales as a Merchant or whatever, I'll do just that, and not try to bribe the Imm/Elders or send journals/notes about setting up a burlesque enterprise in Tarandue etc.
17 minutes ago, 'tarako said:
I never said automate. Never suggested automate. I said STANDARDIZE. Which means each cabal imm chooses their requirements for Trusted, and makes them public. Some chars are gonna hit them easily, others are going to struggle or not try. BUT the standards are there for everyone to see, so if you are trying to hit Trusted, you CANNOT slip through the cracks anymore.
What does this do for me as the Elder or Leader of my Cabal, which I earned. I may want something different done, and as THE PLAYER. I should have the say. Any Cabal I've Elder, you did not get promoted if I didn't give a recommendation as @Kassieti said. My Rp got me there and I've earned that spot. I get a say. This is not to say its not Standardized when this happens. When Pueri and @EllaThePuppy Were elders of Syndicate respectively we had our own way of running the Cabal, and at the end of the day you got promoted if you deserved it. Anume Was there making sure we did nothing dumb. Which we did.