Trouble with Tribunes

Look. My point is this. If there is a goodie trib FOLLOWING an evil trib. Apprehending ANOTHER GOODIE, ESPECIALLY in the case that the goodie TRIB has the detect evil spell(and if they didnt' practice it that does NOT change the fact the class is BUILT to KNOW who is and who is NOT evil). How do you defend that bs? If you are going to say ETHOS is greater then alignment in the case of Tribunal then remove their Alignment alltogether. Because following an evil is just a cheap way of not being 'grouped'.

Having said this and reading your post. Fine. If this is the way you have it, then I, as well as alot of the vets who HAVE posted in here and the other posts, will have to either deal with it, or find something more suited to our tastes. It's as simple as that.

And, to refute your inclination in your last post, my problem with being FORCED to fight, was not the fighting of the evils. It was what I posted at the start of this post, fighting goodies, and especially while they are basically GROUPING with evils to do it. How, in all your logic, do you defend that? Put yourself in the place of the avatar. It isn't all about the pk chains of forced RP.

"Look. My point is this. If there is a goodie trib FOLLOWING an evil trib. Apprehending ANOTHER GOODIE, ESPECIALLY in the case that the goodie TRIB has the detect evil spell(and if they didnt' practice it that does NOT change the fact the class is BUILT to KNOW who is and who is NOT evil). How do you defend that bs? If you are going to say ETHOS is greater then alignment in the case of Tribunal then remove their Alignment alltogether. Because following an evil is just a cheap way of not being 'grouped'."

Again, I fail to understand your outrage. It's cool if goods Justice/Tribunals attack goods, but not if an evil is attacking them as well?

Furthermore, ethos has ALWAYS been greater than alignment, for Justice. ALWAYS. You can ask any 'vets' about this. Your follow-up argument holds as much water as saying, 'if alignment is greater than ethos for non-Tribunals, then remove their ethos altogether'. I'm not 'saying' anything, this is SETTLED LAW from YEARS ago.

"Having said this and reading your post. Fine. If this is the way you have it, then I, as well as alot of the vets who HAVE posted in here and the other posts, will have to either deal with it, or find something more suited to our tastes. It's as simple as that. "

Nearly each and every one of the IMM's here are more 'veteran' than you and have played longer, both in terms of hours, as well as in terms of how long we've been at FL, if you want to continuously wave the vet flag to reinforce your points. We have and will take your advice/suggestions, when they make sense, and we will not when it does not. Your 'seniority' has nothing to do with the validity of your points. Especially considering that in pure hours, most of you 'old vets' haven't played nearly as much as, say, Balinor. Just because you started sooner, doesn't mean your points have any more validity, especially when they are on -settled- matters that are not related to Tribunal.

"Put yourself in the place of the avatar. It isn't all about the pk chains of forced RP."

You run the hell away from the good, and beat the hell out of the evil. Again, is your problem gangbanging, them working together, them using the follow command, or what?

I simply absolutely do not follow, especially considering Justice focus has never been on 'who you work with', but 'who you are attempting to capture'.

For example, good Justice, wanted Knight, evil Nexus. The Justice has ALWAYS been able to attack the good criminal while he was fighting/being attacked by the Nexus. Always.

So what is it, exactly, that has you so angry? The fact that they 'coordinate'? Goods and evils have ALWAYS been able to coordinate; for example, good warmaster+evil warmaster coordinating attacks against Savant, or vice versa.

So a good Justice can attack a wanted goodie who's fighting another evil. And goods/evils in the same cabal can coordinate in order to satisfy cabal objectives.

So wait. Why the heck can't a Justice/Tribunal coordinate with a cabal mate of the opposite alignment, in order to fulfill THEIR cabal objectives? I personally don't like it, but that's because it's gangbanging, which I've never liked, Justice or not.

but will a good warmaster help an evil warmaster kill a good savant? I think not.

Unless you want reamed..

It's two separate issues.

One, can goods and evils in the same cabal coordinate? Yes.

Two, can Justice goods attack wanted goods? Yes.

What's the logical extrapolation you get, when you combine one and two? That Justices goods can coordinate with Justice evils to attack wanted goods. This isn't that hard of a mental leap to make.

I think tempers are are getting a bit heated in here, perhaps its time we call it off.

I'm perfectly calm, if a bit groggy from lack of sleep. Caps and strong emphasis are for purpose of drawing attention to what I feel to be critical points.

With that being said, I'm going to bed.

I'm perfectly calm, if a bit groggy from lack of sleep. Caps and strong emphasis are for purpose of drawing attention to what I feel to be critical points.

With that being said, I'm going to bed.

tucks Raargant in

Or not. Someone's about to post again, heh.

Heated indeed. And once again, me leaving the table feeling slapped around like a lil bitch. Such great respect given.

I'll state it again. My problem is with GOODS, FOLLOWING EVILS, in the APPREHENSION OF GOODS.

I'm saying that GOODS chasing GOODS, in the circumstance of TRIBUNAL can be defined as legit. It alwasy HAS been that way. Obvoiusly I'm not 'outraged' about that. I am 'outraged' about the fact that with the RECENT induction of EVIL to 'JUSTICE', they are given reigns to THROW ALIGNMENT out the window. Or how else do you define healers following necromancers in the apprehension of a goodie, and not just ANY goodie, an IMMORTAL BLESSED GOODIE!

Again, THE APREHENSION OF GOODS, by GOODIES WORKING with EVILS! This has not always been allowed because it has not ALWAYS BEEN IN THE GAME.

And with this I'm done. I was in NO way outraged at the beginning of these posts, but after all this insinuation and disrespect, I am. I was in no way waving any vet flag around, I was stating a fact by the given posts. I don't use vet by length of service, but by skill of play. Which I hand out very infrequently. So once again, insinuation has led you to believe more things then I intended.

It's two separate issues.

One, can goods and evils in the same cabal coordinate? Yes.

Two, can Justice goods attack wanted goods? Yes.

What's the logical extrapolation you get, when you combine one and two? That Justices goods can coordinate with Justice evils to attack wanted goods. This isn't that hard of a mental leap to make.

I think that covers it adequately. And, again, I personally don't like it, but mainly because that's gangbanging.

With regards to you being disrespected, how about these.

"Speak to me like I'm an utter retard please." (aka, not quite sure what this was supposed to mean, but it didn't sound pleasant).

"and not with examples of real life bs" (aka, you expect us to feed you bs)

"Now, two IMMS are defending everything tribunal related. EVERYTHING. Yet here we have the majority of the pbase upset in one way or another about the current situation, and it's all being shot down." (aka, IMM's are ignoring what the 'majority' of the pbase wants and are being non-responsive).

"If this is the way you have it, then I, as well as alot of the vets who HAVE posted in here and the other posts, will have to either deal with it, or find something more suited to our tastes. It's as simple as that." (aka, if we don't get what we want, chances are, we'll probably leave).

Quotes like those are hardly conducive to the atmosphere of a discussion. The only responses that I made that were directed at you, rather than the situation at all, were responses to comments such as those above.

Lmao. Done and done. I'll stick with neutrals and evils.

Sure. Whatever floats your boat.

I am now going to (calmly) go to sleep.

Ciao!

EDIT: Hrm, should I lock it until I wake up, to make sure no one is going to sneak one in on me?

DOUBLE EDIT: Nah. That'll just get everyone all hot and bothered.

Okay, definitely sleeping now.

TRIPLE EDIT: I DO want it to be known that I had and have no intention of 'bitch slapping' anyone in the course of a discussion, but when I read statements that seem to imply veiled threats/disrespect towards the IMMstaff, I will certainly respond to them. If in this case I 'read too much' into it, then, as always, I apologize.

Okay. REALLY definitely sleeping now. Night.

With my outlaw lightwalkers I didnt see 'good' tribunals as lightwalkers - if they came for me I knew it was to get me execute - they want me dead then I should be able to stop them by all means (I mean a true lightwalker wouldnt want me dead - so I kill them if they come for me). I havent ever been punished for that and I dont think I will ever be.

I took the time to read everything that was posted allready and phew finnally I get to post. First I want to say that I've read arguments from both sides that are sound(though I don't particulary have an opinion either way). I've had my run ins with Tribunals, who hasn't, and I realize that things get frustrating. But the one most VALID point that I've read over and over not just in this post but others is that the Balance will shift...IT ALWAYS DOES! Though I'm just now being able to fully enjoy FL from a player's point of veiw, I've been around for a very long time and have seen the majortiy of changes and history of the game. Things change people get bored and try somthing new, or poeple get angry and decide to do something about it. The point is things in game are not cast in stone...the shape of things now will more than likely not stay the same for too long. The main thing to remeber is that Tribunals are NEW(though however similar to justice) and will take some time for ALL of us to get use to, like anything NEW when added to the game. I'm not downing on anyone I want that to be clear, and I'm not trying to disprove anyones points, I'm trying to take a totally neutral approach with this response. That being said, why not instead of arguing with eachother here we take our problems in game(not in a angry way) try to change things from the inside so to speak. You don't like Tribunals play then play somone who hates'em, actually help facilitate the shift in power.

Now as far as GOODIES fighting GOODIES I have the perfect example.

Let's treat Knight's as the US armed forces. Though the armed forces fight wars against those we find "evil" or "dangerous" this doesn't make them above the law and they do not fight on our own soil. We do not police our Own people with our military(save Martial law being invoked) we have our own civil service for that(Tribunals). If a Marine(Goody-Knight) commits murder, just in his eyes and the eyes of the military(Irumeru/Raargant) as it may be, it's still murder and he will still face the consequences of the law. And if he so decides that he will fight back against the law(Goody-Tribunal) he has crossed the line...and in my eyes(in some circumstances) should be outcasted.

Now I know this is a broad example. I'm just stating that by now goods should know what to expect when fighting in town. I'm NOT saying that fighting in town should be taboo, just that you should know what you're getting into when you do. This doesn't limit RP in fact it opens a lot of different gray areas. You just have to think it out and maybe try a little harder than before.

I myself have thought of about 20 different RP angles to play from just becuse of Tribunals being instituted. Some of them might be boundary pushing, some might be the norm...but the point is they are there.

Ok so I'm sure by now i may have offended someone, so I would like to state that I know little of cabal skills and that i would have no idea what would need to be toned or not. I just see everyone getting ahead of their selves. This mud is the best out there(in most our opinions) I hate it when I see even a tad of the pbase angry or thinking about leaving. I enjoy the community as well as the game, so it's kinda like having a friend tell you that you aren't going to be friends anymore. Evryone just needs to take a step back and realize the game can't always be perfect it's a trial an error type of thing. Besides there are bigger issues about the game right now that should be way more important than all this.

EDIT: I do remeber how much it scared me when that old justice Imm appeared in the room.

A cage of bones erupted from the ground and suddenly he was there ready to scold you!

1. obviously, the role of Justice/trib is very important to some of you Imms. Why? On an RP/PK mud, the rp of said group was so screwed up that Viri had to recode the system. (Arrest vs on the spot death.) And they are the only thing slowing people down from PKing other than RP. Someone thinks that they are essential. I can't argue that they should be on par with the other cabals if I don't know why.

2. give the arrest ability to all cabals that might show mercy. instead of criminals, they are POWs.

Bob the storm giant warmaster's whoopass scratches you.

You are stunned.

A troop of soldiers run up.

Their leader says, Should we Kill them or Detain them?

Bob says, "Detain."

The leader salutes Bob.

The troop of soldiers bind your hands and feet and drag you off.

look

Gitmo

You are in a maximum security Warmaster POW camp.

exits none

aff

Affects:

Waiting on lawyer: 24 hours

1. Re: MC

Bad example. Knights and Trib want different goverments. It's more like the US going in and grabbing Saadaam. US Soldiers broke all kinds of Saadaam's laws and none of our laws. So he's in prison and the soldiers are not.

Just.. don't.. break the law. How easy is it to type "where", and notice there is or isn't a Tribunal in town? And even then, wouldn't it be obvious when you see two or more people just sitting in town (pinned, usually) or sitting in the Watchtower to know they're.. lawful, militiamen?

But even then, you can still smite evil without breaking the law. :-\

Read the helpfile on Chaotic Good. Watching for Tribs to determine whether or not you break the law is a violation of that rp.

I'll make an easy example for you. A man sees 'bad' people come to his town, people he knows to be drug dealers and murderers, terrorists, whatever. So, he takes it on himself to gun them down and kill them.

The cops are obviously going to come after him, and try to apprehend. He has some choices. Is he going to run? Or is he going to stand and fight. If he stands and fights, and kills the cops who are trying to do their duty, then yes, in society's eyes, he's a 'murderer of honest police officers'.

When you become a vigilant, you FORCE cops to go after you. And if you decide to kill the cops in order to save your life, then you are considered evil, yes. When you reject the laws of society for the laws of 'goodness', then expect other good people to come after you. And if you kill those good people, then yes, expect to be considered an outcast from civilization.

Remember. You are outcasted from a GUILD (I've very, very rarely seen an actual align-change due to killing good Justices as another good).

Where are guilds located? Exactly, in towns and cities.

Going against the cops doesn't get you damned by the gods.

You also recieve damnation. But just because a guild resides in the cities, do you think they are CONTROLLED by the cities? Does Tribunal control the paladins? Or do the paladins just set up an office in the cities for ease of its members?

Not all guilds are located in cities, and there are plenty of cities outside the cities controlled by the Tribunal.

Read the helpfile on Chaotic Good. Watching for Tribs to determine whether or not you break the law is a violation of that rp.

Actually, it isn't. Chaotics don't care about the law. That doesn't mean they're stupid.

A chaotic good can choose to obey the law because it would be more detrimental to his cause to disobey it. (For example, he doesn't want to fight a particular goodie that is in Tribunal).

And Sneak, you are welcome to RP that you don't see good Tribs as "good", but expect Irumeru to beat you up pretty badly for it. If I say someone is "good", they are.

Remember, alignment in this game is absolute, not a "grey area".

I'm going to do my best to stay away, far away, from this debate as I have not had a character that has interacted with any of the Tribunes, or anyone else at 50 for that matter. But I do have an RP question....

If goods and evils are allowed to "team up" in respects to upholding the law, are goods and evil allowed to "team up" in an effort to destroying the empire which is the law?

Now, by "team up" I'm not saying group and kill anyone who is against them, but instead work together. perhaps Dark Knight Bob says "I want to kill Paladin Jim." So Good Cleric Jack says, "Fine. I won't stop you, but I want to kill Vampire Tom."

I guess, basically, the only way I'd see an overly large problem with the whole thing is if this wasn't allowed. And if it is, why isn't anyone doing this? If everyone hates this cabal so bad, why not make it impossible for anyone in that cabal to have the ability to do so much damage?

Because from an RP standpoint, I'm seeing that this Tribunal cabal is pissing every other cabal off, in some way, shape, or form. So why hasn't anyone joined forces for an all out, bloody, punch-em-in-the-nose, kick-em-while-their-down type war between Tribs, and anyone willing to ally with Watchers?

Could the Knights roleplay with the Watchers to set aside their smaller differences of Avatars in the ranks, for the time being, to get rid of the larger threat that is taking over Aabarhan?

Maybe I'm just rambling, but could someone give me a good answer to these questions?

a-g

Hmmm, Just a couple of points I wish to add to this long, lovely thread.

First, a good coordinating with an evil Justice is hardly going against Good align RP. They are working to restore order which keeps people safe, in the cities at least. It also allows the Good to make sure the criminal is captured and treated fairly as well. What possible motives would DK bob and CLeric Jack have for working together? They both obviously aren't in the same cabal, unless perhaps Savant.

Knights "seem" to like the idea that Tribs are keeping the cities safe, but I would imagine they have a problem with a couple members of Tribunal. So why go to war over a couple members of the cabal?

Oh, and trust me, there have been plenty of routs earlier where the Tribs have been mass attacked. WHen Tribunal first came out, other than perhaps Chrinchton, its members were middling PKers, and the members were constantly killed. Outlaw/Wanted status meant nothing.